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Poll Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September
   LMI Tests -> Monthly Sudoku and Puzzle Tests80 posts • Page 2 of 4 • 1 2 3 4
How frequently you would want to see Sprint tests at LMI?
The aim of the Sprint test is to have relatively easier and less number of puzzles so that many more players can complete the full set. Please let us know if we should have more Sprint tests at LMI.
OptionResults
Once in a month22 Votes - [47.83%]
Once in a quarter18 Votes - [39.13%]
Once in 6 months5 Votes - [10.87%]
Once in a year1 Votes - [2.17%]
Never. This should be the last Sprint Test.0 Votes - [0%]
View Results

thesubro
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-03 8:01 AM (#5504 - in reply to #5455) (#5504) Top




Posts: 23
20
Location: USA
For Galaxies, the Answer Key instructions advise: "Write the length of distinct regions parts in the marked rows and/or columns."

Just as in Heyawacky, symmetrical "galaxies" can double back on themselves and have arms or legs separated by other galaxies. In such instances should the answer reflect each portion of a multi-part single galaxy by the length of its aggregate distinct parts, or each portion separately?

Thanks.

Edited by thesubro 2011-09-03 8:02 AM
figonometry
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-03 8:13 AM (#5505 - in reply to #5455) (#5505) Top




Posts: 30
20
Location: Canada
Does anyone know of a good tutorial for how to do Heyawake? That is easily my biggest blind spot now when it comes to puzzles. I managed to get everything else on this test solved (and mostly correct!) near my target time, but never finished the Heyawake. I've been practicing them, and still it's rare for me to finish one.
debmohanty
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-03 8:27 AM (#5506 - in reply to #5504) (#5506) Top



1000500100100100202020
Location: India
thesubro - 2011-09-03 8:01 AM

For Galaxies, the Answer Key instructions advise: "Write the length of distinct regions parts in the marked rows and/or columns."

Just as in Heyawacky, symmetrical "galaxies" can double back on themselves and have arms or legs separated by other galaxies. In such instances should the answer reflect each portion of a multi-part single galaxy by the length of its aggregate distinct parts, or each portion separately?

Thanks.
In that case, you still need to enter the "different" number of galaxies.
anderson
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-03 8:45 AM (#5507 - in reply to #5455) (#5507) Top




Posts: 16

Location: USA
As for having fun, this test was certainly a lot of fun. Thanks a bunch for the elegant puzzles, Ours brun! :)

And the test was definitely doable in the time allotted, but that didn't prevent me from breaking a puzzle because I couldn't count to 3, restarting, getting to the final step, and then wondering for 5 minutes why it didn't have a unique solution, again because I missed something and couldn't count to 3. I ended up not solving it. Oops.
debmohanty
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-03 10:08 AM (#5508 - in reply to #5503) (#5508) Top



1000500100100100202020
Location: India
thesubro - 2011-09-03 7:52 AM

For Fortress, the Answer Key instructions advise: "Write the length of separate white cell blocks in the marked rows and/or columns (write 0 if there is none). The answer for the example would be 1, 1."

Frankly, its a bad noninstructive example. If there were 2 separate white cells of length 1 in the first row, should the answer have been 11, 1 (a one for each separate white cell block) or 2, 1 (providing the aggregate "length of the separate white cell blocks")

Thanks.
It should be 11,1
Note that several puzzles in this test use the same mechanism for answer key. Please check NURIKABE, HEYAWACKY, HORSE SNAKE, LITS
thesubro
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-03 10:33 AM (#5509 - in reply to #5455) (#5509) Top




Posts: 23
20
Location: USA
As usual, LMI is the the top site for online puzzle test fun, both in terms of the quality of the test taking mechanisms as well as the product. Thanks for all of the hours that the puzzle creators (By Bastien « Ours brun » Vial-Jaime) and Deb put into these efforts.

With that all said, I personally stink at Galaxies and Snake puzzles, so I was not looking forward to them on the test - and my concerns were accurate. I guess I will need to wait for a treatise to be published by Motris or MellowMelon so that I can advance my puzzle career.

Folks, great fun again. Thanks so much.

TheSubro
pribaros
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-03 8:19 PM (#5510 - in reply to #5455) (#5510) Top




Posts: 2

Location: Turkey
i dont see the password and Pdf can not open, anyone knows? (my time is started, immediate pleasee :) )
debmohanty
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-03 8:28 PM (#5511 - in reply to #5510) (#5511) Top



1000500100100100202020
Location: India
pribaros - 2011-09-03 8:19 PM

i dont see the password and Pdf can not open, anyone knows? (my time is started, immediate pleasee :) )

The password is shown below the timer. If you still can't see the password, send me a message


pribaros
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-03 8:31 PM (#5512 - in reply to #5511) (#5512) Top




Posts: 2

Location: Turkey
ahh sooo, ok i see thanx for reply
Administrator
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-03 9:24 PM (#5514 - in reply to #5502) (#5514) Top


20005001001002020
Location: India
Administrator - 2011-09-03 6:15 AM

As usual, please use the score page to settle all claims
All claims will be looked into. Sometimes, it might take a while.
Please check your forum inbox for updates.
kiwijam
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-04 6:53 AM (#5516 - in reply to #5455) (#5516) Top




Posts: 147
1002020
Location: New Zealand
Will the Hall of Fame entries be based on how much better than the Target Time you achieved?
Sure we want to know who was fastest overall, but the same names are always seen on the podium.
Here is a rare chance for the normal puzzlers to achieve a small amount of glory! :)
motris
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-04 11:36 PM (#5517 - in reply to #5455) (#5517) Top




Posts: 199
10020202020
Location: USA
My pulse is racing more than on any other test. Waiting till the end to do all the typing didn't help. Many good designs and definitely "sprint" was the captured feel. Thanks Bastien!
MellowMelon
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 12:59 AM (#5518 - in reply to #5517) (#5518) Top


Fillomino-Fillia 2 Author

100
Location: USA
Yeah, I can concur with having the pulse racing. Although here, that took the place of the huge amount of sweat I've started to feel all over me after finishing a 90+ minute test.
debmohanty
Subject: RE: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 6:25 AM (#5519 - in reply to #5455) (#5519) Top



1000500100100100202020
Location: India
With no one participating now, Sprint test is over. MellowMelon (33:51), motris (34:05), xevs (37:48) take the top 3 positions. Their timings are extremely close (note that xevs took 3.5 minutes to recheck all answers before hitting 'Claim Bonus'). All of them and 3 more in top 10 are well ahead of their 'target' time.

Thank you everyone for participating and for voting in the poll. It is important for us to know what everyone expects.

Some stats :
Total number of participants : 264
Number of non-zero scores : 210
Number of players claiming bonus : 41
Number of players getting bonus : 36
Number of players submitting all 15, but not claiming bonus : 4
Number of players with all 15 correct: 29
Number of players with 14 correct: 19

Median Score : 110

debmohanty
Subject: RE: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 6:36 AM (#5520 - in reply to #5455) (#5520) Top



1000500100100100202020
Location: India
Please post any feedback you might have regarding the test
  • Length of the test
  • Difficulty of puzzles
  • Complexity of puzzles
  • Number of puzzles
Bastien will share his thoughts some time later in the day.
spmcandrews
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 7:15 AM (#5521 - in reply to #5455) (#5521) Top




Posts: 1

Location: USA
Can I ask how I got 4 points out of 5 on Masyu? Was there partial credit somehow?
motris
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 8:18 AM (#5522 - in reply to #5521) (#5522) Top




Posts: 199
10020202020
Location: USA
spmcandrews - 2011-09-04 6:15 PM

Can I ask how I got 4 points out of 5 on Masyu? Was there partial credit somehow?


It looks like your answer was on the "accepted" list, but was not actually correct for the described answer mode. The solution should be 13,22, for lengths of line segments in the indicated rows, and your entry was 24,33 with consistent overcounting. So you got credit, but it counted as a typo for -20%.


------------------
I really liked the test, particularly the page with the Star Battle (123 theme) and the Tapa below (with 1234 by quadrant theme). Some other puzzles also had cute themes that didn't compromise the lower difficulty goal.

You'll notice though that I am the voter with the least interest in seeing these every month or even every quarter. Just as I liked the Screen Test when it was run a year ago, I felt that was something that could happen every year and be a welcome change from the usual. I view this kind of test the same way. I would not want a Sprint Test to replace the 2h tests we've been having every month, nor to add on a third monthly test if that is the alternate option. But I wouldn't mind it once or twice a year as a (literal) change of pace.

One side comment on scoring - we have consistently been granular on the order of minutes when it comes to bonus. I see no reason to not have fractional points to give the most correct accounting of relative performance (particularly when this test greeted me with my score of 986.252 which has excessive significance anyway). One side effect is with fractional bonus you will never have the rankings incorrectly sorted after a test which I seem to see this time around with Janka1 behind Spelvin despite earlier submission and onigame ahead of two others despite being in the same minute too. Order could change with refreshing, but it should certainly sort by score and then time. (I think the specific bug is sorting on last correct submission and not "claim bonus" time.)

Edited by motris 2011-09-05 8:21 AM
rakesh_rai
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 8:42 AM (#5524 - in reply to #5522) (#5524) Top



Support Administrator, Casual and Word (PR 19) Author

Posts: 727
50010010020
Location: India
motris - 2011-09-05 8:18 AM

One side effect is with fractional bonus you will never have the rankings incorrectly sorted after a test which I seem to see this time around with Janka1 behind Spelvin despite earlier submission and onigame ahead of two others despite being in the same minute too. Order could change with refreshing, but it should certainly sort by score and then time. (I think the specific bug is sorting on last correct submission and not "claim bonus" time.)


I think its sorted based on "points + last correct submission time" currently. It should perhaps be changed to "points + claim time + last correct submission time". We are seeing this effect because of many claims this time (unlike earlier tests).
debmohanty
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 8:49 AM (#5525 - in reply to #5524) (#5525) Top



1000500100100100202020
Location: India
rakesh_rai - 2011-09-05 8:42 AM

motris - 2011-09-05 8:18 AM

One side effect is with fractional bonus you will never have the rankings incorrectly sorted after a test which I seem to see this time around with Janka1 behind Spelvin despite earlier submission and onigame ahead of two others despite being in the same minute too. Order could change with refreshing, but it should certainly sort by score and then time. (I think the specific bug is sorting on last correct submission and not "claim bonus" time.)


I think its sorted based on "points + last correct submission time" currently. It should perhaps be changed to "points + claim time + last correct submission time". We are seeing this effect because of many claims this time (unlike earlier tests).
Certainly a glitch there. Will fix that in a while.
debmohanty
Subject: RE: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 9:44 AM (#5526 - in reply to #5455) (#5526) Top



1000500100100100202020
Location: India
Updated score page - http://logicmastersindia.com/M201109P/score.asp

skywalker > Janka1 > spelvin
ByronosaurusRex > S_Aoki > onigame

Also,
Para > tarotaro > ppeetteerr

Players with same scores but less than 14 puzzles correct are sorted by "Last Correct Submission" irrespective of "Claim Bonus Time"
debmohanty
Subject: Re: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 9:50 AM (#5527 - in reply to #5522) (#5527) Top



1000500100100100202020
Location: India
motris - 2011-09-05 8:18 AM

spmcandrews - 2011-09-04 6:15 PM

Can I ask how I got 4 points out of 5 on Masyu? Was there partial credit somehow?


It looks like your answer was on the "accepted" list, but was not actually correct for the described answer mode. The solution should be 13,22, for lengths of line segments in the indicated rows, and your entry was 24,33 with consistent overcounting. So you got credit, but it counted as a typo for -20%.

It was not necessarily a typo, but was a misunderstanding of answer key. It was debatable whether it should be 100% or 80%. We had same problems in JPL as well (even though the authors had done a splendid job of explaining using an image)

In fact we had players who entered row A using one method, and row B using another method. So clearly, it is not a good answer key.

We should be using Method 4 described here for loop puzzles.
Valezius
Subject: RE: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 11:24 AM (#5529 - in reply to #5455) (#5529) Top


WPMM Author

Posts: 66
202020
Location: Hungary
I dont understand this result.
As I see the score page, I think the target time column is totally pointless. If you delete it, then the order wont be change.

I thought before the test the target time is important. And I thought I will get points for my saved minutes from my target time. This would be logical.
debmohanty
Subject: RE: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 11:41 AM (#5530 - in reply to #5529) (#5530) Top



1000500100100100202020
Location: India
kiwijam - 2011-09-04 6:53 AM

Will the Hall of Fame entries be based on how much better than the Target Time you achieved?
Sure we want to know who was fastest overall, but the same names are always seen on the podium.
Here is a rare chance for the normal puzzlers to achieve a small amount of glory! :)


Valezius - 2011-09-05 11:24 AM

I dont understand this result.
As I see the score page, I think the target time column is totally pointless. If you delete it, then the order wont be change.

I thought before the test the target time is important. And I thought I will get points for my saved minutes from my target time. This would be logical.


We had planned the Sprint test such that a 'lot' of players should be able to complete the whole set. That also meant top players will be completing the set much earlier. That is when we thought of adding a 'target time' for each player based on LMI ratings.

While giving bonus points based on 'target — achieved' certainly came across my mind, it was not done primarily because of reasons below.
1) There was no scientific / logical way to compute the target time. Rakesh had an interesting idea, but we stuck to a simple linear formula.
2) There are several new players who were playing first time. They didn't have a target time. For example onigame, Nilz
3) There are several players who have started to play at LMI recently (just 1 or 2 tests). Target time for them is clearly not accurate. For example murat, TiiT

In future Sprint Tests, it will be definitely interesting to fine tune target time. But I'm still now sure if we can give some points based on 'target — achieved' because of points 2 and 3 above.

And should there be penalty if target < achieved?
MellowMelon
Subject: RE: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 11:59 AM (#5531 - in reply to #5530) (#5531) Top


Fillomino-Fillia 2 Author

100
Location: USA
I am inclined to believe a serious usage of target time will not be worth much if you base it only on ratings (and I have no idea what else to base it on), for the same reason winning Under-X rating sections in chess tournaments is usually a matter of being significantly underrated. Even among players with established ratings, they can be in the process of improving, or others conversely may be a little rusty if they took a brief break from these tests. Either way their rating would not be the best reflection of their skill level.

To me the current system, where the target time is a recommendation with no impact on scores or rankings, seems to serve all the intended purposes well enough. One change that couldn't hurt is to have a separate unofficial ranking list with the best performers relative to their target time.
Valezius
Subject: RE: Sprint Test — LMI Sep Puzzle Test — 3rd and 4th September @ 2011-09-05 12:18 PM (#5532 - in reply to #5530) (#5532) Top


WPMM Author

Posts: 66
202020
Location: Hungary
Naturally, I see the problems with "my" bonus system.
But in this test the target time hadnt function, and I hope it will have in the future :)

I dont have better idea than making an offical and unofficial result.
You can perform on offical list if you have at least 6 non-zero results before the Sprint test. And in this case the target time can be accurate.

I know, I disqualify many solvers, but if the LMI hold a Sprint test in every half year, than this isnt a big problem :)
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