Thread - MAYnipulation — LMI May Puzzle Test

Country : India

debmohanty posted @ 2011-05-09 11:49 PM

MellowMelon - 2011-05-09 11:36 PM

Is the Kropki example not uniquely solvable? It seems that you can swap 1s with 5s and 2s with 4s to get a different answer.

We discussed about this problem, but didn't fix the image. Will upload the fixed example.

@ 2011-05-10 12:01 AM (#4341 - in reply to #4332) (#4341) Top

Posts: 33

Country : Turkey

A Carton Mutant posted @ 2011-05-10 12:01 AM

Apologies, that example was prepared rather hastily. And I was supposed to fix it..

@ 2011-05-10 12:03 AM (#4342 - in reply to #4340) (#4342) Top

vopani

Posts: 739

Country : India

vopani posted @ 2011-05-10 12:03 AM

In Persistence Of Memory, does every shape need to have at least one cell as part of the snake or can some shapes remain completely blank?

@ 2011-05-10 12:06 AM (#4343 - in reply to #4332) (#4343) Top

Posts: 33

Country : Turkey

A Carton Mutant posted @ 2011-05-10 12:06 AM

Shapes need to contain at least one part of the snake. I thought it was implied by the rules, but it seems I was being vague.

@ 2011-05-10 2:44 AM (#4347 - in reply to #4332) (#4347) Top

Gareth

Posts: 17

Country : United Kingdom

Gareth posted @ 2011-05-10 2:44 AM

Doesn't the Ambigram Skyscrapers example have two solutions? Won't 0123,3210,1302,2031 also suffice or am I missing a rule?

@ 2011-05-10 3:31 AM (#4348 - in reply to #4332) (#4348) Top

Posts: 33

Country : Turkey

A Carton Mutant posted @ 2011-05-10 3:31 AM

That won't satisfy the "looking the same when turned upside down" part.

@ 2011-05-10 7:05 AM (#4349 - in reply to #4343) (#4349) Top

Country : India

Administrator posted @ 2011-05-10 7:05 AM

MellowMelon - 2011-05-09 11:36 PM

Is the Kropki example not uniquely solvable? It seems that you can swap 1s with 5s and 2s with 4s to get a different answer.

A Carton Mutant - 2011-05-10 12:06 AM

Shapes need to contain at least one part of the snake. I thought it was implied by the rules, but it seems I was being vague.

IB with these 2 changes uploaded.

@ 2011-05-10 3:52 PM (#4356 - in reply to #4332) (#4356) Top

PuzzleScot

Posts: 31

Country : United Kingdom

PuzzleScot posted @ 2011-05-10 3:52 PM

Do you have the exact UTC time window for this contest?
If it has not been set, could it the end time be at least 1am GMT/UTC (2am BST) please, to enable as many UK competitors as possible to compete? Thank-you.

@ 2011-05-10 4:01 PM (#4357 - in reply to #4356) (#4357) Top

Country : India

debmohanty posted @ 2011-05-10 4:01 PM

PuzzleScot - 2011-05-10 3:52 PM

Do you have the exact UTC time window for this contest?
If it has not been set, could it the end time be at least 1am GMT/UTC (2am BST) please, to enable as many UK competitors as possible to compete? Thank-you.

This will start at 00:00:01 AM Saturday GMT (same as all LMI tests). But we are making a change to the end time based on several complaints / suggestions.
The test will be open for 48 hours, that means players can start upto 48 hours. Once a player starts, he will always have 101 minutes to submit (so in effect it will end at 01:41:01 AM GMT)

Hope it is fine. If you want a longer window, we can start earlier or end later or both. Let us know.

@ 2011-05-10 6:28 PM (#4358 - in reply to #4332) (#4358) Top

David McNeill

Posts: 63

Country : United Kingdom

David McNeill posted @ 2011-05-10 6:28 PM

Further to Gareth's query, I believe that the Ambigram Skyscrapers puzzle has 3 solutions. The third solution is 0123,3210,1032,2301. The Persistence of Memory solution puzzled me and I think the rules need to be clarified. I assumed that the orientation of the shape did not matter and that, therefore, all 4 shapes were identical. Under this interpretation, the given solution does not satisfy the rule that each shape should have snake parts with the same appearance. There is at least one valid solution using my "false" interpretation.

Please clarify these points.

@ 2011-05-10 6:45 PM (#4359 - in reply to #4332) (#4359) Top

Country : India

debmohanty posted @ 2011-05-10 6:45 PM

About Ambigram Skyscrapers

The rule says "The solution, if written in the above notation, must look the same when the page is turned upside down."

This is Gareth's alternate solution (with page turned upside down)

David's alternate solution (with page turned upside down)

Both of them don't satisfy the rule.

The given solution is

and it looks same when rotated.

@ 2011-05-10 6:48 PM (#4360 - in reply to #4358) (#4360) Top

rakesh_rai

Posts: 774

Country : India

rakesh_rai posted @ 2011-05-10 6:48 PM

David McNeill - 2011-05-10 6:28 PM

The Persistence of Memory solution puzzled me and I think the rules need to be clarified. I assumed that the orientation of the shape did not matter and that, therefore, all 4 shapes were identical. Under this interpretation, the given solution does not satisfy the rule that each shape should have snake parts with the same appearance. There is at least one valid solution using my "false" interpretation.

Here, 2x1 block is different from 1x2 block.

@ 2011-05-10 7:04 PM (#4361 - in reply to #4360) (#4361) Top

Country : India

debmohanty posted @ 2011-05-10 7:04 PM

Apart from 2X1 blocks being different from 1X2 blocks, the path of the snake also must be exactly same (rotation not allowed)

If some 1X1 blocks were given :

For example, this is a valid.		This is NOT valid

@ 2011-05-10 7:22 PM (#4362 - in reply to #4332) (#4362) Top

Posts: 33

Country : Turkey

A Carton Mutant posted @ 2011-05-10 7:22 PM

The reason I created the example with 1x2 blocks and 2x1 blocks was the hope that them being different would be noticed. Guess not. If two blocks have exactly the same shape (no rotation, no nothing), they have the same appearance regarding snake parts.

Ambigram: I do not expect anyone to actually solve the puzzle using that fancy font. :) However, the rule "The solution, if written in the above notation, must look the same when the page is turned upside down." helps.

@ 2011-05-10 8:47 PM (#4363 - in reply to #4332) (#4363) Top

swaroop2011

Posts: 668

Country : India

swaroop2011 posted @ 2011-05-10 8:47 PM

hey in the Deformable Kropki i think there are 2 solutions.
the 3's and 5's are interchangeable at R4C1 R4C2 AND R5C1 R5C2.

@ 2011-05-10 9:07 PM (#4364 - in reply to #4363) (#4364) Top

Country : India

Administrator posted @ 2011-05-10 9:07 PM

swaroop2011 - 2011-05-10 8:47 PM

hey in the Deformable Kropki i think there are 2 solutions.
the 3's and 5's are interchangeable at R4C1 R4C2 AND R5C1 R5C2.

R3C1 is 2 and R4C1 will be 3. That is not valid since there is no dot between R3C1 and R4C1.

@ 2011-05-10 9:13 PM (#4365 - in reply to #4364) (#4365) Top

swaroop2011

Posts: 668

Country : India

swaroop2011 posted @ 2011-05-10 9:13 PM

ok
it means that reverse rule also applies in Deformable Kropki.

Edited by swaroop2011 2011-05-10 9:24 PM

@ 2011-05-10 9:14 PM (#4366 - in reply to #4365) (#4366) Top

Country : India

Administrator posted @ 2011-05-10 9:14 PM

swaroop2011 - 2011-05-10 9:13 PM

ok

it means that reverse rule also applies.

That is so obvious from the rules.

@ 2011-05-10 9:25 PM (#4367 - in reply to #4332) (#4367) Top

swaroop2011

Posts: 668

Country : India

swaroop2011 posted @ 2011-05-10 9:25 PM

In Coral rotator ,
does whil rotating the page upside down makes 2 and interchangeable.

And in Symmetric Loop
in the first regiion that is in column 1 and 2.
the loop is U shape but at R3 it is Z shape BUt the rule says it is symmetric how?

@ 2011-05-10 9:46 PM (#4368 - in reply to #4332) (#4368) Top

David McNeill

Posts: 63

Country : United Kingdom

David McNeill posted @ 2011-05-10 9:46 PM

Thanks for clarification. I hope my mistakes will not be made by any competitors in the real thing.

@ 2011-05-10 10:11 PM (#4369 - in reply to #4367) (#4369) Top

rakesh_rai

Posts: 774

Country : India

rakesh_rai posted @ 2011-05-10 10:11 PM

swaroop2011 - 2011-05-10 9:25 PM

In Coral rotator , does whil rotating the page upside down makes 2 and interchangeable.

Yes 2 becomes 3 on page turned upside down, and vice-versa

And in Symmetric Loop
in the first regiion that is in column 1 and 2.
the loop is U shape but at R3 it is Z shape BUt the rule says it is symmetric how?

Just look at the portion of the loop inside the marked areas. It should be symmetric, i.e., if you rotate the marked area by 180 degrees, you still get the same loop portion inside the area.

@ 2011-05-11 5:46 AM (#4371 - in reply to #4369) (#4371) Top

Country : India

Administrator posted @ 2011-05-11 5:46 AM

rakesh_rai - 2011-05-10 10:11 PM

swaroop2011 - 2011-05-10 9:25 PM

In Coral rotator , does whil rotating the page upside down makes 2 and interchangeable.

Yes 2 becomes 3 on page turned upside down, and vice-versa

Also, 4 becomes 7 and vice versa. Same with 6 and 9.
Remaining digits 0 1 5 8 don't change when turned upside down.

@ 2011-05-11 9:52 PM (#4374 - in reply to #4332) (#4374) Top

vopani

Posts: 739

Country : India

vopani posted @ 2011-05-11 9:52 PM

In Superimposed Loop, can both the grids contain a black cell in the same position?

@ 2011-05-12 1:07 AM (#4376 - in reply to #4374) (#4376) Top