Do you have any suggestions for improving the formatting for this variant?

You may have noticed that points for classics were higher as compared to most SM tests. So classics were expected to be harder.

There is nothing like a wrong puzzle but individual preferences can differ. And with the clock running, even easy grids can look formidable sometimes.

What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles?	Too many hard puzzles
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Very nice
Which set of puzzles did you like the most?	2 Odd 2 Even Sudoku
Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty?	Most puzzles were worth too much or too little

Extremely hard test,as expected.
Just like last time,literally every sudoku was difficult,which is now certainly a theme of Ashish's creations without doubt.
I felt a few sudokus as a result were grossly undervalued,examples being coded and odd even count,both of which were worth more points.
Classics should have been given lesser points to compensate.
Didnt enjoy the test much,but thanks to Ashish and Kishore for the sudokus.

Slightly off-topic, but regarding +-1, my suggestion would be to go with "knapp daneben".

In terms of presentation I think it's fine to not present the True or Lie as pencil marks. Besides the mentioned Roman Numerals, there's also e.g. last GP's Braille Sudoku or just Odd/Even Sudoku. Certainly they can all be expressed as pencilmarks, but I feel that the presentation does direct the logic in a way. The kinds of arguments that are possible are somewhat restricted, and there are different patterns to be recognized. I did end up writing out candidates in the hard competition puzzle after missing some logic, but in the end I think the messier grid rather solved me down extra (on top of the work of writing out candidates).

The puzzles were great, and quite difficult. Thanks to the authors and organizers!

What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles?	Too many hard puzzles
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Fairly Nice
Which set of puzzles did you like the most?	2 Odd 2 Even Sudoku

What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Very nice
Which set of puzzles did you like the most?	Classic Sudoku
Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty?	Many puzzles were worth too much or too little

@kishy72: Ok, I feel there has been a lot of playing the man not the ball here. Comments like:

"Perhaps you might have had a bad experience solving a TOL in the past which bothers you when you see it and your opinon on it is largely framed based on you being very subjective ?!"

are not helpful. I have had no such bad experience, and indeed I've already outlined where I am coming from with my thinking. I don't know why you are trying to falsely attribute further words and motives to me, but I sincerely hope this is unfortunate behaviour you might hold back from in any further discussion. You might think what I've raised is trivial, but that's also just your opinion, and it's an opinion with which I disagree. I also doubt I'm the only one who disagrees.

You are correct in saying that not all pencilmark sudoku can be represented as true or lie, but it is very much the case that all true or lie sudoku can be represented as pencilmark sudoku. So we certainly have some kind of equivalence going on here, and so I think the question as to which presentation is more helpful is a legitimate question to raise.

Re beginner friendly - I've framed things in this way because presentational issues are more likely to affect less experienced solvers than more experienced solvers - although perhaps this was not the best way to make my point. I take the point that as stated true or lie isn't unclear in the statement of its rules, but ultimately my point is that doesn't mean that things couldn't be improved. In general I think contests should aim to present puzzles as clearly as possible.

@Fred76, @rob: Solving this competition puzzle reminded me of solving a Roman Numerals/S for Sudoku/Morse etc. In general I'm not the biggest fan of such puzzles either - exactly the same arguments can be raised when it comes to the required bookkeeping required to solve these puzzles, and whether they add to or hinder the solving experience. Certainly if you are transposing the given information back into candidates there's a risk you might make transpose something in error and not realise until much later, which I can imagine being very frustrating. On the other hand I accept that not everyone will be solving the puzzle quite like that. Maybe there's something to be said when the information is encoded in completely different sets of symbols, as opposed to numbers 1-9 abbreviating the candidates.

Anyhow all that aside, I thought the puzzles in this round (although quite hard) were of very good quality. In particular it's nice to see some very well crafted classic puzzles, which often get left as an afterthought in many online contests.

What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles?	Too many hard puzzles
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Very nice
Which set of puzzles did you like the most?	2 Odd 2 Even Sudoku

Puzzle quality was excellent, even though some puzzles seemed quite hard to me, but maybe thats because I did the test late in the evening. Quadro 2 and Classic 4 seemed undervalued to me. Thanks for the nice set of puzzles!

Right.You started this even before you took the test by stating that TOL is a less well presented version of a pencil mark sudoku when it clearly felt to us that you were taking a jibe and belittling the efforts that go behind in putting forth each episode.You probed further asking me what the differences were when you knew yourself what differentiates the two.When the matter is insignificant for a discussion, it's natural to think that your past experience might have had a say and moreover I didn't say that you had one.I said "perhaps you might have ..." .Both have a difference.If I still stick to my point and say now that you are letting your judgement clouded by your past encounter with TOL, then that's totally different.If you think that "unfortunate behaviour" is to withheld then you should be more polite when you addressed the issue.

I am 100% certain that if it weren't for you, it wouldn't even have occured to someone to equate the 2 and then sacrifice one for the other just supposedly because of an alternative version with better presentation based on some preconceived notion.

There might be numerous cases where one variant is very similar in solving style/presentation to another and can be sacrificed for the other but it would just be an unfruitful thing and a waste of time and efforts to search for such.They just add variety.


You seem to be contradicting when you agree that TOL isn't unclear in the statement of its rules and yet you put forth that contests should aim to be as clear as possible.If that's the case here, then why this pointless discussion ?!



Thank you and indeed the puzzles were on the harder side and I will add a little to this after the contest.We discussed this right after sinchai gave the test and it became very clear to us when kwak took 77m to finish the set which is much more than what he usually takes for an episode.

Is it possible to extend the test for one more day i.e. till Wednesday midnight IST.

An idea I had was to put the numbers (faintly, but larger font) over the whole square so the pencil marks would be more visible on their own. Not sure, though.

Thank you. This is noted for future contests.

@kishy72: I’m done here, this isn’t a school playground, and I won’t waste my time further with childish taunts of “you started it”. You’ve twice dissected my posts line by line and remararkably you have failed to come close to addressing my point. I don’t think there’s anything more I can say to such a person.

That said I’m sorry if you thought I was initially making a jibe or belittling the contest. Perhaps you are not aware, but I have been organising online contests for nearly 10 years and I have an interest in all aspects of running them. I certainly know that running a contest is no easy thing to do, that it’s certainly possible to make mistakes, and I am grateful to all those who give up their time to do so, you included.

If you feel you have run the perfect contest, then maybe you have the right to be so touchy about any kind of criticism. If not, then I urge you to react with a little more maturity in the future, and take the positives rather than inventing some straw man negatives to get so upset and offended over.

I may as well try and put all this bad blood behind me and take something useful out of the other “discussion” - given the similarities to other symbolic type variants then some of the same principles apply. I thought larger, centred and greyed out clues worked nicely for Morse on the recent GP round, and perhaps something similar might work for this. Another idea is to apply Pinocchio style outlined clues rather than solid clues.

Thanks for the suggestions. We will definitely consider this approach when we come across such a scenario in future.

Please, no digits that occupy the whole cell and are not part of the solution, even if they are grey or outlined. This is my (personal) advice for formatting. See here for a past discussion on the subject:
http://gp.worldpuzzle.org/content/sudoku-round-6-liar-sudoku

Fred

I think it is more a problem of online solving interface than grid formatting. The harder part of the job on LMI is to get friendly format for both paper and online solving. Perhaps it's better to concentrate first on paper format, because official championships are based on paper solving. Having a possibility of online solving is a great tool for people who don't have access to a printer, but I don't think it should be the priority for formatting grids.

Concerning interface, there are basically 2 models for writing pencil marks: the one here, used for example on the website argio-logic.net too, and the model of fed-sudoku.eu and sudokucup.com (pencil marks are confined on the top of the cell and don't erase when entering the final digit). I'm more fan of the second one, I think some potential formatting issues could be fixed more easily with this model.

Fred

Consider this as thrice.This is the way I respond to posts and if you can't take them then so be it.You say that I fail to address your point .I think your post has been given more attention than it needs to and your query has been well answered (just not in the way that you might have expected or wanted it to be).I already told you that TOL is not very different from a pencil mark sudoku and even explained whatever differences I thought they had.I further added that it is a more beginner friendly version than a pencil mark sudoku.I don't know what more you expect me to say.I would be glad too if you don't have anything to say because I am getting tired of answering your posts.

I am well aware of that having been a regular of UK puzzle association myself and the sudoku contests there but that doesn't mean that you can keep posting ditzy queries elsewhere like the one you raised here or in WSC 17 regarding the printing ink and paper standing to the use of an eraser.

I never boasted anywhere nor am I related to running contests here except co-authoring this round which is a first.There is nothing called a 'perfect contest'.There will always be room for improvement which is why feedbacks are given serious importance here.Perhaps you haven't taken cognizance of that fact and don't try to play the moral high ground here asking me to be mature.You are neither a parent or a superior to me and nobody is inventing anything here except answering your trivial and silly queries .

LMI encourages healthy, constructive discussions but there is no scope for comments which are personal in nature. One of the sub-discussions in this thread is not happening in the right spirit and we request the concerned participants to please put a stop to that discussion. Thanks.

At the same time, all are free to ask any questions even if those questions are trivial in nature.

What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles?	Just right
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Average
Which set of puzzles did you like the most?	Odd Even Count Sudoku
Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty?	Most puzzles were worth too much or too little

Well said. I regret the spirit in which this discussion has taken place and I apologise where my tone became personal or non-constructive as this was not my intention.

However, speaking for myself in light of that last post in particular which hints at a long-standing grudge, I no longer feel free or welcome to ask questions, promote discussions or to provide feedback at LMI - and therefore I will no longer do so going forward. Given my good friends here this is something that greatly saddens me.

Tom,

You don't know me. I hope you reconsider. As a fringe member of this community, I appreciate the diverse points of view presented by the more experienced and engaged members like you. It will be a loss to this community if you choose not to participate further.

Thanks.

That would indeed be sad Tom. I have known you for ages, through sudoku and personally too. Maybe people are not aware on the bigger role you are handling with WPF regarding the Sudokus and their definition, and I think I can safely assume your questions were a result of the efforts you are putting in that. Maybe I am wrong, but as the Admin pointed out, no question is unwelcome. Having said that, irrespective of what our personal style of response is, a certain decorum needs to be maintained in a public discussion.

Edited by purifire 2019-02-12 3:23 PM