@ 2020-04-17 7:12 AM (#28014 - in reply to #27868) (#28014) TopPosts: 12
Country : Poland
lukasz6500 posted @ 2020-04-17 7:12 AM
I am waiting for the official decision of organisers. For me, accepting only one approach, without clarifying contents of puzzle booklet and extending contest for more time, is unaccaptable. But it is just my opinion :) Above is my explanation. I have already told everything and I am just waiting for the official decision.
@ 2020-04-17 7:16 AM (#28015 - in reply to #27868) (#28015) Top
Country : India
Administrator posted @ 2020-04-17 7:16 AM
@ 2020-04-17 10:42 AM (#28016 - in reply to #27868) (#28016) TopPosts: 136
Country : India
anurag posted @ 2020-04-17 10:42 AM
Some serious lessons for the admins in the last few posts.
@ 2020-04-17 10:58 AM (#28017 - in reply to #28010) (#28017) TopPosts: 136
Country : India
anurag posted @ 2020-04-17 10:58 AM
forcolin - 2020-04-17 6:25 AM
I have not been on the forum for quite some time and I now notice the discussion has become very messy. I can't understand why. To me the rules of the diamonds and of the battleship were clear. Cards cannot have common segments and (after Anurag's question) can touch at corners. OK where is the problem? Obviously in the example given by panista I can see only one way of placing the card 2 without overlapping of any of the segments. any alternative way of placing the card would cause partial overlapping of contour segments. During the course of the competition I generated some solutions which I discarded because I could swap the position of the cards 2 and 3 so I did not have a unique solution.For puzzle 10 I needed to ask a question to Riad and after his reply everything was clear: my understanding was (and still is ) that I have to solve a "Clouds-like" puzzle avoiding 2x2 white areas, and that I could not use the extra rule of the absence of 2x2 white areas to exclude some combinations. Perhaps not everybody has read Riad's comment on my question (do players read answers to questions asked by other players?) or not everybody understood my question because i did not post a diagram with it, however subsequently there was a question about why there is the digit 2 in the example and that clarified the matter further (and I believe completely). I recommend to Timjamiller to go back at page 2 of the comments and to read Riad's answer to my question and to the question asked by panista related to the example.
I have not been on the forum for quite some time and I now notice the discussion has become very messy. I can't understand why. To me the rules of the diamonds and of the battleship were clear. Cards cannot have common segments and (after Anurag's question) can touch at corners. OK where is the problem? Obviously in the example given by panista I can see only one way of placing the card 2 without overlapping of any of the segments. any alternative way of placing the card would cause partial overlapping of contour segments. During the course of the competition I generated some solutions which I discarded because I could swap the position of the cards 2 and 3 so I did not have a unique solution.For puzzle 10 I needed to ask a question to Riad and after his reply everything was clear: my understanding was (and still is ) that I have to solve a "Clouds-like" puzzle avoiding 2x2 white areas, and that I could not use the extra rule of the absence of 2x2 white areas to exclude some combinations. Perhaps not everybody has read Riad's comment on my question (do players read answers to questions asked by other players?) or not everybody understood my question because i did not post a diagram with it, however subsequently there was a question about why there is the digit 2 in the example and that clarified the matter further (and I believe completely). I recommend to Timjamiller to go back at page 2 of the comments and to read Riad's answer to my question and to the question asked by panista related to the example.
Riad Khanmagomedov - 2020-04-10 6:22 PMYou need to get a solution without 2x2 white fragments. You use this condition as given in advance. This is incorrect.
To me arguments such as "if in puzzle 10 a certain rule xxxx is applied in a certain way then in puzzle 11 we should adopt the same interpretation" are not sustainable. every puzzle is a puzzle in itself and it can well be that rules can be different for different puzzles.Stefano, that reply from Riad, as I had mentioned several times, was grammatically incorrect. And that was the source of all confusion. It is a shame that nobody answered that question of mine, even yet. I also prepared a very specific question on that reply. If you read all my posts, which I don't think others did, you should notice that I also said that the puzzle, as I understand, was trivial. This was enough clue that my understanding was incorrect (same as what one of the users posting today thinks). Nobody corrected me on that. Some think and claim everything was crystal clear, pretend to help with some forced answers, report weird statistics like how many posts I made, and yet speculations do not end. Endorsing can be fun, but one should not sound like a sponsor.
Edited by anurag 2020-04-17 11:00 AM
@ 2020-04-17 12:05 PM (#28018 - in reply to #27868) (#28018) TopPosts: 2
Country : Turkey
SCORPPROCS posted @ 2020-04-17 12:05 PM
Puzzle 11: Town Puzzle
Is the example below, for just the cards 4 and 5, accepted?
Please note that the solution is not unique.
XXOXXXO
XXXXXXX
OXXXOXX
XXXXXXX
XXOXXXO
XXXXXXX
OXXXOXX
Edited by SCORPPROCS 2020-04-17 12:06 PM
Is the example below, for just the cards 4 and 5, accepted?
Please note that the solution is not unique.
XXOXXXO
XXXXXXX
OXXXOXX
XXXXXXX
XXOXXXO
XXXXXXX
OXXXOXX
Edited by SCORPPROCS 2020-04-17 12:06 PM
@ 2020-04-17 3:30 PM (#28021 - in reply to #28018) (#28021) TopCountry : India
Administrator posted @ 2020-04-17 3:30 PM
24 hours Extension
Based on requests from participants, the contest duration is further extended by 24 hours.
Answers can now be submitted/modified till 23:59 Moscow time on 18th April (20:59 GMT 18-04-2020) .
@ 2020-04-17 3:33 PM (#28022 - in reply to #27868) (#28022) TopCountry : India
Administrator posted @ 2020-04-17 3:33 PM
Request to participants
Please restrict the discussion to the contest and puzzles.
@ 2020-04-17 6:05 PM (#28023 - in reply to #27868) (#28023) TopCountry : India
Administrator posted @ 2020-04-17 6:05 PM
Updated Puzzle Booklet
An updated version of the Puzzle Booklet is available now.
Changes:
Page 1 : Submission date updated
Puzzle 10: Rules paraphrased again, based on forum discussion.
@ 2020-04-17 6:20 PM (#28024 - in reply to #27868) (#28024) TopPosts: 26
Country : Ukraine
Mihalich posted @ 2020-04-17 6:20 PM
Under the new rules in the example, the number 2 is not needed. Right?
@ 2020-04-17 6:24 PM (#28025 - in reply to #27868) (#28025) TopPosts: 136
Country : India
anurag posted @ 2020-04-17 6:24 PM
Streets of length 2 are not possible. It was not necessary to mention in the rules. They could just mention 1x3. The word 'the' also managed to stay in that updated text.
@ 2020-04-17 6:25 PM (#28026 - in reply to #28024) (#28026) TopPosts: 136
Country : India
anurag posted @ 2020-04-17 6:25 PM
Mihalich - 2020-04-17 6:20 PM
Under the new rules in the example, the number 2 is not needed. Right?
Under the new rules in the example, the number 2 is not needed. Right?
The clue '2' is needed in the example.
@ 2020-04-17 6:49 PM (#28027 - in reply to #27868) (#28027) TopPosts: 187
Country : New Zealand
kiwijam posted @ 2020-04-17 6:49 PM
@Scorpprocs: Riad says "The reviewer should clearly define the borders of the nine cards and their numerical values.", so your example is not accepted because you cannot uniquely tell where the 4 and 5 are.
@ 2020-04-17 7:24 PM (#28030 - in reply to #28027) (#28030) TopPosts: 136
Country : India
anurag posted @ 2020-04-17 7:24 PM
kiwijam - 2020-04-17 6:49 PM
@Scorpprocs: Riad says "The reviewer should clearly define the borders of the nine cards and their numerical values.", so your example is not accepted because you cannot uniquely tell where the 4 and 5 are.
@Scorpprocs: Riad says "The reviewer should clearly define the borders of the nine cards and their numerical values.", so your example is not accepted because you cannot uniquely tell where the 4 and 5 are.
It is obvious that you haven't been reading. Your focus is on unnecessary things like counting how many time someone posts.
Scorpprocs's solution is correct, and as he knew, not unique. He asked if the solution is acceptable in terms of placement of cards, except for the non-uniqueness.
If you can invest time in counting the number of posts per user, I am sure you can do a bit of reading too.
@ 2020-04-17 8:03 PM (#28031 - in reply to #28030) (#28031) TopPosts: 1801
Country : India
prasanna16391 posted @ 2020-04-17 8:03 PM
Anurag -
It is clear your only presence here is to cause problems, and it hasn't escaped me that each time you come over here with this attitude is after a new case of us trying to work with you and it not working out. I don't want to divulge further here, but please stop with the agenda. Consider this the last warning and after this you will be banned from the forum for being a disruptive influence.
We are all here to enjoy Riad's puzzles. I can tell all the participants as a test solver that a lot of work goes into the IB and PB and the version put out is a result of a lot of cooperation between him and us already. We may still fall short at times, but that is never the intention. We have to run multiple contests in a year and sometimes its difficult to give more than a certain amount of time to a particular one but we always appreciate what Riad brings to these contests and are happy to make it work, even if things are found wanting sometimes, because the puzzle quality generally makes up for it. We apologize generally for the confusion that seems to have been caused with the rules.
I repeat though that that is no reason for a bullish attitude. Thank you to everyone who has gone about the discussions in an amicable way and tried to help out genuinely.
It is clear your only presence here is to cause problems, and it hasn't escaped me that each time you come over here with this attitude is after a new case of us trying to work with you and it not working out. I don't want to divulge further here, but please stop with the agenda. Consider this the last warning and after this you will be banned from the forum for being a disruptive influence.
We are all here to enjoy Riad's puzzles. I can tell all the participants as a test solver that a lot of work goes into the IB and PB and the version put out is a result of a lot of cooperation between him and us already. We may still fall short at times, but that is never the intention. We have to run multiple contests in a year and sometimes its difficult to give more than a certain amount of time to a particular one but we always appreciate what Riad brings to these contests and are happy to make it work, even if things are found wanting sometimes, because the puzzle quality generally makes up for it. We apologize generally for the confusion that seems to have been caused with the rules.
I repeat though that that is no reason for a bullish attitude. Thank you to everyone who has gone about the discussions in an amicable way and tried to help out genuinely.
@ 2020-04-17 8:12 PM (#28032 - in reply to #27868) (#28032) TopPosts: 136
Country : India
anurag posted @ 2020-04-17 8:12 PM
I can't emphasize more that this has nothing to do with what you are referring to. I need to know who is the admin here. It is a pity you think so. You all carry the same opinion about me that I am a critic, nothing more than that. My queries were left unattended and even taken down. So, who is the admin? I happen to write at this time because I usually don't attend other tests, not because of what you are referring to. I am not so keen to work with someone that I would resort to means of bullshitting. This thread did not start with complaints, if you were really reading. All I am saying is you are not doing your work and instead making alternative sense of it.
Your apology is fine, that's not what I need. I repeat, I have only one thing to say: know what you are doing before deleting posts. Thank you.
Your apology is fine, that's not what I need. I repeat, I have only one thing to say: know what you are doing before deleting posts. Thank you.
@ 2020-04-17 8:24 PM (#28033 - in reply to #27868) (#28033) TopPosts: 1801
Country : India
prasanna16391 posted @ 2020-04-17 8:24 PM
If that isn't the case, then I wonder why you have so much vitriol in your posts, and why there is a pattern of this.. Maybe there is a reason why people have a common opinion of you. I did not take down your posts but knowing past instances I have no doubt it was justified if another admin did. My apology was for people who deal with things well. You clearly do not and cannot see how disruptive you have been on the forum.
@ 2020-04-17 8:43 PM (#28034 - in reply to #27868) (#28034) TopPosts: 12
Country : Poland
lukasz6500 posted @ 2020-04-17 8:43 PM
I am working tonight (that's why I asked for extending the contest at least until the end of the week) so I have no time to take a second approach for Puzzle #10. I know it is my problem but thank you for waisting seven days of my life mostly only solving that contest to get the best possible results in optimisation puzzles.
For all the time rules of problem #10 were:
Make a town puzzle with a unique solution in the grid 12x10.
Place some dark rectangles, that are at least two cells wide and two cells high. They cannot touch each other, not even diagonally. The numbers outside the grid show the number of dark cells in the corresponding row or column. The white cells must form streets with a width of one cell, i.e. the white area of streets cannot contain fragments of 2x2 cells.
Maximize N, the number of streets. If two solutions have the same N, then the solution with the smaller sum of the given numbers is considered better.
I have solved this problem.
There was no mention that that unique solution must meet the condition of the absence of 2x2 white areas in puzzle booklet.
And I hope it will be considered as a good solution.
I really appreciate your job and I am sorry for emotions. I just spent too much time for that contest and that's why I do care so much. Greetings!
For all the time rules of problem #10 were:
Make a town puzzle with a unique solution in the grid 12x10.
Place some dark rectangles, that are at least two cells wide and two cells high. They cannot touch each other, not even diagonally. The numbers outside the grid show the number of dark cells in the corresponding row or column. The white cells must form streets with a width of one cell, i.e. the white area of streets cannot contain fragments of 2x2 cells.
Maximize N, the number of streets. If two solutions have the same N, then the solution with the smaller sum of the given numbers is considered better.
I have solved this problem.
There was no mention that that unique solution must meet the condition of the absence of 2x2 white areas in puzzle booklet.
And I hope it will be considered as a good solution.
I really appreciate your job and I am sorry for emotions. I just spent too much time for that contest and that's why I do care so much. Greetings!
@ 2020-04-17 8:58 PM (#28035 - in reply to #28018) (#28035) TopPosts: 234
Country : Russia
Riad Khanmagomedov posted @ 2020-04-17 8:58 PM
SCORPPROCS - 2020-04-17 12:05 PM
Puzzle 11: Town Puzzle
Is the example below, for just the cards 4 and 5, accepted?
Please note that the solution is not unique.
XXOXXXO
XXXXXXX
OXXXOXX
XXXXXXX
XXOXXXO
XXXXXXX
OXXXOXX
Puzzle 11: Town Puzzle
Is the example below, for just the cards 4 and 5, accepted?
Please note that the solution is not unique.
XXOXXXO
XXXXXXX
OXXXOXX
XXXXXXX
XXOXXXO
XXXXXXX
OXXXOXX
This is not acceptable.
@ 2020-04-17 9:31 PM (#28036 - in reply to #27868) (#28036) TopPosts: 139
Country : Estonia
TiiT posted @ 2020-04-17 9:31 PM
Maybe someone who knows the rules, should post few easy example puzzles here to show what kind of solutions are acceptable and what kind of solutions are not.
As much as I understand the rules (english is not my mother language), I'm pretty sure that 2x2 white areas are NOT allowed in town puzzle. It's also a rule if you start solving it with given clues after you have created one. I mean that if you are solving the puzzle you can use it to make a progress.
Example: If you have 2x2 area where 3 cells are definitely unshaded, then the 4-th cell must be shaded.
Note: Please correct me if I'm wrong. I also agree if you delete my post and replace it with correct expanation. I also have solved the puzzle as well as I could and it would not be a problem if I actually got it wrong.
Note2: I really appreciate the aesthetics of the puzzles after I had solved them. They looked just so beautiful. I even photographed them :)
As much as I understand the rules (english is not my mother language), I'm pretty sure that 2x2 white areas are NOT allowed in town puzzle. It's also a rule if you start solving it with given clues after you have created one. I mean that if you are solving the puzzle you can use it to make a progress.
Example: If you have 2x2 area where 3 cells are definitely unshaded, then the 4-th cell must be shaded.
Note: Please correct me if I'm wrong. I also agree if you delete my post and replace it with correct expanation. I also have solved the puzzle as well as I could and it would not be a problem if I actually got it wrong.
Note2: I really appreciate the aesthetics of the puzzles after I had solved them. They looked just so beautiful. I even photographed them :)
@ 2020-04-17 9:55 PM (#28037 - in reply to #28036) (#28037) TopPosts: 12
Country : Poland
lukasz6500 posted @ 2020-04-17 9:55 PM
TiiT - 2020-04-17 9:31 PM
Maybe someone who knows the rules, should post few easy example puzzles here to show what kind of solutions are acceptable and what kind of solutions are not.
As much as I understand the rules (english is not my mother language), I'm pretty sure that 2x2 white areas are NOT allowed in town puzzle. It's also a rule if you start solving it with given clues after you have created one. I mean that if you are solving the puzzle you can use it to make a progress.
Example: If you have 2x2 area where 3 cells are definitely unshaded, then the 4-th cell must be shaded.
Note: Please correct me if I'm wrong. I also agree if you delete my post and replace it with correct expanation. I also have solved the puzzle as well as I could and it would not be a problem if I actually got it wrong.
Note2: I really appreciate the aesthetics of the puzzles after I had solved them. They looked just so beautiful. I even photographed them :)
Maybe someone who knows the rules, should post few easy example puzzles here to show what kind of solutions are acceptable and what kind of solutions are not.
As much as I understand the rules (english is not my mother language), I'm pretty sure that 2x2 white areas are NOT allowed in town puzzle. It's also a rule if you start solving it with given clues after you have created one. I mean that if you are solving the puzzle you can use it to make a progress.
Example: If you have 2x2 area where 3 cells are definitely unshaded, then the 4-th cell must be shaded.
Note: Please correct me if I'm wrong. I also agree if you delete my post and replace it with correct expanation. I also have solved the puzzle as well as I could and it would not be a problem if I actually got it wrong.
Note2: I really appreciate the aesthetics of the puzzles after I had solved them. They looked just so beautiful. I even photographed them :)
I am pretty sure that too. This is a difference between Clouds / Regenwolken and usual Town puzzle. The first one does not have the rule about the absence of 2x2 white area. The second one does. But of course sometimes there are some small differences in puzzles of the same name so it should have been clarified in puzzle booklet always.
And this is another argument why this approach should be considered.
@ 2020-04-17 10:31 PM (#28038 - in reply to #27868) (#28038) TopPosts: 26
Country : Ukraine
Mihalich posted @ 2020-04-17 10:31 PM
Puzzle 10.
Condition:
- - - -
2 ? ? ? ?
- ? ? ? ?
In the description, only 2, without 0.
Is there a unique solution or not?
Edited by Mihalich 2020-04-17 10:33 PM
Condition:
- - - -
2 ? ? ? ?
- ? ? ? ?
In the description, only 2, without 0.
Is there a unique solution or not?
Edited by Mihalich 2020-04-17 10:33 PM
@ 2020-04-17 10:45 PM (#28039 - in reply to #28038) (#28039) TopPosts: 12
Country : Poland
lukasz6500 posted @ 2020-04-17 10:45 PM
Mihalich - 2020-04-17 10:31 PM
Puzzle 10.
Condition:
- - - -
2 ? ? ? ?
- ? ? ? ?
In the description, only 2, without 0.
Is there a unique solution or not?
Puzzle 10.
Condition:
- - - -
2 ? ? ? ?
- ? ? ? ?
In the description, only 2, without 0.
Is there a unique solution or not?
According to the actual rules and organisers' statement, there is not a unique solution.
@ 2020-04-18 12:01 AM (#28040 - in reply to #27868) (#28040) TopPosts: 12
Country : Poland
lukasz6500 posted @ 2020-04-18 12:01 AM
I will just make a summary and this will be my last message here.
There are two different approaches for Problem #10.
One of them states that the absence of 2x2 white areas is considered as a rule of a Town puzzle.
The seconds one states that it is not and that the unique solution of a Town puzzle should meet this condition.
Arguments for the first statement:
- contents of puzzle booklet for the whole standard time of the contest (excluding addidional time due to decision of extending the contest) - there was no mention that the unique solution must meet this condition;
- the same approach has been made for other problems (e.g. "borders of cards cannot have common segments" is part of rules of a Diamonds puzzle in Problem #11);
- usual Town puzzle probably contains that rule (if someone is able to find the example to get ensured, it will be great);
Arguments for the second statement:
- Riad's reply to Forcolin's message posted on the discussion thread - after that there was no official statement and clarifying the contents of puzzle booklet until today.
Below it is my opinion.
The decision of clarifying the rules and extending the contest was too late and for not enough time to make a second approach. The contest lasts 9 days so everyone can find enough time to solve problems.
If someone didn't read discussion thread before and has no time today and tomorrow then he has no chance to do it properly.
In that case, both approaches or any of them should be valid.
The decision is up to organisers. I will accept any decision even if I do not agree with it.
After all I really liked all the puzzles so I do appreciate a professional work of Riad.
There are two different approaches for Problem #10.
One of them states that the absence of 2x2 white areas is considered as a rule of a Town puzzle.
The seconds one states that it is not and that the unique solution of a Town puzzle should meet this condition.
Arguments for the first statement:
- contents of puzzle booklet for the whole standard time of the contest (excluding addidional time due to decision of extending the contest) - there was no mention that the unique solution must meet this condition;
- the same approach has been made for other problems (e.g. "borders of cards cannot have common segments" is part of rules of a Diamonds puzzle in Problem #11);
- usual Town puzzle probably contains that rule (if someone is able to find the example to get ensured, it will be great);
Arguments for the second statement:
- Riad's reply to Forcolin's message posted on the discussion thread - after that there was no official statement and clarifying the contents of puzzle booklet until today.
Below it is my opinion.
The decision of clarifying the rules and extending the contest was too late and for not enough time to make a second approach. The contest lasts 9 days so everyone can find enough time to solve problems.
If someone didn't read discussion thread before and has no time today and tomorrow then he has no chance to do it properly.
In that case, both approaches or any of them should be valid.
The decision is up to organisers. I will accept any decision even if I do not agree with it.
After all I really liked all the puzzles so I do appreciate a professional work of Riad.
@ 2020-04-18 12:48 AM (#28041 - in reply to #27868) (#28041) Top
Posts: 172
Country : ITALY
forcolin posted @ 2020-04-18 12:48 AM
perhaps the organizers can activate a second answering page for puzzle 10 where a solution obtained according to a different principle/approach can be filed. I believe i have used the correct approach but if i am wrong I would be happy to submit a second alternative solution
on the same puzzle, how are roads counted? as kiwijam mentioned, is it the number of words in a crossword or the number of stretches of length 1x3 at least?
In other words, in the example below whereas O=white, X=black
XXOXX
XXOXX
OOOOO
XXOXX
XXOXX
how many roads are there? 2 of length 5 crossing in the middle or 4 of length 3 all departing from the central square?
Edited by forcolin 2020-04-18 12:51 AM
on the same puzzle, how are roads counted? as kiwijam mentioned, is it the number of words in a crossword or the number of stretches of length 1x3 at least?
In other words, in the example below whereas O=white, X=black
XXOXX
XXOXX
OOOOO
XXOXX
XXOXX
how many roads are there? 2 of length 5 crossing in the middle or 4 of length 3 all departing from the central square?
Edited by forcolin 2020-04-18 12:51 AM
@ 2020-04-18 1:16 AM (#28042 - in reply to #28041) (#28042) TopPosts: 12
Country : Poland
lukasz6500 posted @ 2020-04-18 1:16 AM
forcolin - 2020-04-18 12:48 AM
XXOXX
XXOXX
OOOOO
XXOXX
XXOXX
how many roads are there? 2 of length 5 crossing in the middle or 4 of length 3 all departing from the central square?
XXOXX
XXOXX
OOOOO
XXOXX
XXOXX
how many roads are there? 2 of length 5 crossing in the middle or 4 of length 3 all departing from the central square?
There are 2 streets of length 5.