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Poll Answer Submission Format for Sudoku
   LMI Essentials -> General Discussion17 posts • Page 1 of 1 • 1
Answer Submission Format for Sudoku
OptionResults
Sudoku grid with marked cells to be entered (like how it is now)3 Votes - [30%]
A row/column to be typed completely in one line (like puzzle tests)3 Votes - [30%]
Enable both the above options for users to choose4 Votes - [40%]
Other ideas (please specify)0 Votes - [0%]
View Results

vopani
Subject: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-23 1:46 PM (#3236) (#3236) Top


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For those who do not solve online, how would you like the answer submission system?
debmohanty
Subject: RE: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-24 10:15 AM (#3255 - in reply to #3236) (#3255) Top



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Rohan Rao - 2011-01-23 1:46 PM

For those who do not solve online, how would you like the answer submission system?
Is there a problem that you face with current submission format?
rakesh_rai
Subject: Re: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-24 11:06 AM (#3259 - in reply to #3255) (#3259) Top



Mean Minis (2020) Author

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Some points:

(1) Row/column should be much easier and less error-prone as compared to a marked set of cells. Whether it is actually so or not? - I'll try to look at some numbers after Prime Exotica test gets over.
(2) In general, paper solvers can solve much faster as compared to those doing online (even after accounting for time spent in printing). Having a marked set of cells creates a little more balance between those solving online vis-a-vis on paper.
(3) From an evaluation perspective, a marked set of cells always gives you 10 empty cells, while a row/column will normally have between 10-18 empty cells and sometimes there is error in entering the given values. These can be avoided by using marked cells.
(4) Marked cells (if carefully selected) can also be used for partial marking.
motris
Subject: Re: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-24 11:49 PM (#3264 - in reply to #3259) (#3264) Top




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I certainly find entering a row/column much easier to transcribe from the paper copy to online. Sometimes entering more than 10 digits is a trade-off I'll take for a more fool-proof submission set. Only if a test creater used Rakesh's (4)th point of partial marking would I find a lot of value in taking digits from throughout the grid.
debmohanty
Subject: Re: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-25 5:47 AM (#3270 - in reply to #3259) (#3270) Top



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Location: India
Thanks for your points Rakesh, but my question to Rohan is different.

In most other competitions, the rows / columns are marked by arrows in pdf. However, we don't do that at LMI for valid reasons.
Because of this, marking 10 cells on the grid throughout just increases the chance of making errors
Also, I would definitely think that entering 2 rows / columns is definitely less time taking.
vopani
Subject: RE: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-25 9:12 AM (#3275 - in reply to #3255) (#3275) Top


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debmohanty - 2011-01-24 10:15 AM

Rohan Rao - 2011-01-23 1:46 PM

For those who do not solve online, how would you like the answer submission system?
Is there a problem that you face with current submission format?

I dont usually solve online (in view of WSC-style of solving on paper), unless they are 6x6 or really easy 9x9 puzzles. Some players (who play online) and at Techfest asked me a question like 'Why cant sudoku submissions be same as puzzle submissions?'. To be truthful, I didn't have any convincing answer.

In online submissions:
1. In a test like 'Prime Exotica', a player can easily skip a marked cell (by mistake), especially during the dying minutes of the test.
2. Due to the images, there 'might' be a problem for those with low internet speed or technically expired computers (I had this problem in early 2010 in mock tests due to a slow connection. I dont know how it is now).
3. Entering a row/column in one line is definitely quicker and easier for offline solvers.
4. For searching a sudoku in random order, it takes a few seconds due to scrolling (which has considerably reduced due to tabs) whereas it would almost certainly be easier with smaller gaps.
5. Why cant you have an optional answer submission system?

P.S. Above points have been asked to me, I'm just putting it forward.

Personally for me, if I were given a choice, I would choose to submit answers in one line (like in puzzles).
vopani
Subject: Re: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-25 9:15 AM (#3277 - in reply to #3270) (#3277) Top


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debmohanty - 2011-01-25 5:47 AM

Thanks for your points Rakesh, but my question to Rohan is different.

In most other competitions, the rows / columns are marked by arrows in pdf. However, we don't do that at LMI for valid reasons.
Because of this, marking 10 cells on the grid throughout just increases the chance of making errors
Also, I would definitely think that entering 2 rows / columns is definitely less time taking.

I agree with you about marking arrows. Maybe some better idea can come through...
debmohanty
Subject: RE: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-25 10:04 AM (#3278 - in reply to #3275) (#3278) Top



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Location: India
Rohan Rao - 2011-01-25 9:12 AM

I dont usually solve online (in view of WSC-style of solving on paper), unless they are 6x6 or really easy 9x9 puzzles. Some players (who play online) and at Techfest asked me a question like 'Why cant sudoku submissions be same as puzzle submissions?'. To be truthful, I didn't have any convincing answer.

In online submissions:
1. In a test like 'Prime Exotica', a player can easily skip a marked cell (by mistake), especially during the dying minutes of the test.
2. Due to the images, there 'might' be a problem for those with low internet speed or technically expired computers (I had this problem in early 2010 in mock tests due to a slow connection. I dont know how it is now).
3. Entering a row/column in one line is definitely quicker and easier for offline solvers.
4. For searching a sudoku in random order, it takes a few seconds due to scrolling (which has considerably reduced due to tabs) whereas it would almost certainly be easier with smaller gaps.
5. Why cant you have an optional answer submission system?

P.S. Above points have been asked to me, I'm just putting it forward.

Personally for me, if I were given a choice, I would choose to submit answers in one line (like in puzzles).

We always had 2 rows / columns marked, and only in Prime Exotica we asked for random cells. So, lets take Prime Exotica out of discussion.

We definitely can have different answer submission system for paper solvers / online solvers.
But I've a question before that. Does 'not showing the marked cells from the beginning' help? Is it good? Our original thought was that this forces players to solve the complete grid.

It is probably unique to LMI, and has been there since Mock6. But if we get rid of that, and mark the rows / columns directly on image (both on pdf and on screen), we can easily develop alternate submission system.

debmohanty
Subject: RE: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-25 10:14 AM (#3280 - in reply to #3275) (#3280) Top



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Location: India
Rohan Rao - 2011-01-25 9:12 AM

I dont usually solve online (in view of WSC-style of solving on paper), unless they are 6x6 or really easy 9x9 puzzles. Some players (who play online) and at Techfest asked me a question like 'Why cant sudoku submissions be same as puzzle submissions?'. To be truthful, I didn't have any convincing answer.

In online submissions:
1. In a test like 'Prime Exotica', a player can easily skip a marked cell (by mistake), especially during the dying minutes of the test.
2. Due to the images, there 'might' be a problem for those with low internet speed or technically expired computers (I had this problem in early 2010 in mock tests due to a slow connection. I dont know how it is now).
3. Entering a row/column in one line is definitely quicker and easier for offline solvers.
4. For searching a sudoku in random order, it takes a few seconds due to scrolling (which has considerably reduced due to tabs) whereas it would almost certainly be easier with smaller gaps.
5. Why cant you have an optional answer submission system?

P.S. Above points have been asked to me, I'm just putting it forward.

Personally for me, if I were given a choice, I would choose to submit answers in one line (like in puzzles).


Every online system will have some demerits, but here is how you can get around some of the problems you've listed.

>>> 1. In a test like 'Prime Exotica', a player can easily skip a marked cell (by mistake), especially during the dying minutes of the test.
Unique case. We should stick to rows / columns.

>>> 2. Due to the images, there 'might' be a problem for those with low internet speed or technically expired computers (I had this problem in early 2010 in mock tests due to a slow connection. I dont know how it is now).
The idea is that when you click on "Start Test", you immediately get the password. You print the pdf and start solving. In the meantime, images will get loaded, even if you have slow internet connection.
It is does not happen often, but if any image does not get loaded, you can click on "Can't See Sudoku" for that particular grid. No need to refresh whole page.

>>> 4. For searching a sudoku in random order, it takes a few seconds due to scrolling (which has considerably reduced due to tabs) whereas it would almost certainly be easier with smaller gaps.
Valid point.
But not that big a problem. Even online solvers face that problem of scrolling.

>>> 5. Why cant you have an optional answer submission system?
As I mentioned above, if we can get rid of "Show Cells to Fill after X minutes" concept, we can have alternate answer submission system.
Not having the arrow marks on paper will still be a problem for paper solvers.

Lets decide this with feedback from few players.
vopani
Subject: Re: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-25 11:02 AM (#3282 - in reply to #3280) (#3282) Top


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I have always encouraged the 'showing of answer cells' as late as possible. Just like you mentioned, it is unique at LMI and I dont suggest to change it.

1 possible solution is to enable an 'Answer Page' for offline solvers after some time. This page will mention the row/column to be entered in one line. The drawback is that the pdf will not have marked arrows, so it is error-prone. But it is still an idea.
debmohanty
Subject: Re: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-25 11:18 AM (#3283 - in reply to #3282) (#3283) Top



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Location: India
Rohan Rao - 2011-01-25 11:02 AM

I have always encouraged the 'showing of answer cells' as late as possible. Just like you mentioned, it is unique at LMI and I dont suggest to change it.

1 possible solution is to enable an 'Answer Page' for offline solvers after some time. This page will mention the row/column to be entered in one line. The drawback is that the pdf will not have marked arrows, so it is error-prone. But it is still an idea.

That is definitely error prone for paper players. Also, it significantly increases the chance of 'organizers' doing mistakes.

One of my earliest thoughts (after reading this post - http://motris.livejournal.com/120480.html) :
Everything remains as is.
Add two text boxes below each grid.
Paper players can enter the solution in the text boxes.
Does that help? It still does not solve the problem 2 and 4 you mentioned.

Again - just one possible idea. Other ideas most welcome.
neerajmehrotra
Subject: Re: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-27 8:13 PM (#3328 - in reply to #3283) (#3328) Top




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debmohanty - 2011-01-25 11:18 AM

One of my earliest thoughts (after reading this post - http://motris.livejournal.com/120480.html) :
Everything remains as is.
Add two text boxes below each grid.
Paper players can enter the solution in the text boxes.
Does that help? It still does not solve the problem 2 and 4 you mentioned.

Again - just one possible idea. Other ideas most welcome.


Yes It helps.............
Administrator
Subject: Re: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-31 9:26 AM (#3346 - in reply to #3328) (#3346) Top


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We are adding a text box per grid in the next Sudoku test.

Here is a screenshot

purifire
Subject: Re: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-31 9:43 AM (#3348 - in reply to #3346) (#3348) Top



Odd Even & Twisted Classics (SM 16/17) Author

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Administrator - 2011-01-31 9:26 AM

We are adding a text box per grid in the next Sudoku test.

Here is a screenshot



This is a wonderful addition to help people solving on papers... However, if we find that a person has erronously filled the online grid and the textbox below..then by default the answer in the online grid will be taken as final answer!
neerajmehrotra
Subject: Re: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-01-31 10:18 PM (#3351 - in reply to #3236) (#3351) Top




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Thanx Deb....this is really wonderful...........
vopani
Subject: Re: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-02-01 3:55 PM (#3368 - in reply to #3351) (#3368) Top


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neerajmehrotra - 2011-01-31 10:18 PM

Thanx Deb....this is really wonderful...........

Thumbs up from my side.
Tejal Phatak
Subject: Re: Answer Submission Format for Sudoku @ 2011-02-03 10:49 AM (#3373 - in reply to #3368) (#3373) Top




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Superb!
Will get much easier for people solving on paper... :)
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