PANFOPCWHTTAPA 3 (11th - 16th Nov) Score Discuss
Riad Khanmagomedov's April Contest — 15th to 22nd April 202267 posts • Page 2 of 3 • 1 2 3
@ 2022-04-19 3:57 PM (#30551 - in reply to #30538) (#30551) Top

moeve



Posts: 2

Country : Germany

moeve posted @ 2022-04-19 3:57 PM

moeve - 2022-04-16 9:05 AM
What about CJK's question:
CJK - 2022-04-14 10:07 PM
Is it allowed to use programs or similar things, especially for the optimization puzzles?

Of course, programming is usually not allowed in puzzle contests -- but ususally there are no optimization puzzles and especially for No. 11 it is obviously quite tempting to do some... ;)

?
@ 2022-04-19 5:43 PM (#30552 - in reply to #30522) (#30552) Top

forcolin




Posts: 170
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Country : ITALY

forcolin posted @ 2022-04-19 5:43 PM

puzzle 11: only integer numbers or decimal allowed?
@ 2022-04-19 10:20 PM (#30553 - in reply to #30552) (#30553) Top

Riad Khanmagomedov



Posts: 187
10020202020
Country : Russia

Riad Khanmagomedov posted @ 2022-04-19 10:20 PM

forcolin - 2022-04-19 5:43 PM

puzzle 11: only integer numbers or decimal allowed?

The intermediate result can be fractional, but it is forbidden to construct numbers using a dot or comma.
@ 2022-04-20 12:45 PM (#30554 - in reply to #30551) (#30554) Top

MastrclaySeine



Posts: 1

Country : The Netherlands

MastrclaySeine posted @ 2022-04-20 12:45 PM

moeve - 2022-04-19 3:57 PM

moeve - 2022-04-16 9:05 AM
What about CJK's question:
CJK - 2022-04-14 10:07 PM
Is it allowed to use programs or similar things, especially for the optimization puzzles?

Of course, programming is usually not allowed in puzzle contests -- but ususally there are no optimization puzzles and especially for No. 11 it is obviously quite tempting to do some... ;)

?


Another request then to get an answer to this question. Not sure why this question has been ignored three times?
@ 2022-04-20 3:50 PM (#30555 - in reply to #30522) (#30555) Top

Carlos



Posts: 5

Country : France

Carlos posted @ 2022-04-20 3:50 PM

Hello,
It would be convenient to know if we have to use only paper/pencil for optimization problems, in order to be rated on the same criteria...
@ 2022-04-20 4:36 PM (#30556 - in reply to #30546) (#30556) Top

Nizz



Posts: 11

Country : Denmark

Nizz posted @ 2022-04-20 4:36 PM

Riad Khanmagomedov - 2022-04-17 2:30 PM

forcolin - 2022-04-17 3:32 PM

For Mechanical Sudoku: Can any of the fragments overlap with one of the existing givens?

Hi Stefano,
1. It is not forbidden, but the fragments do not overlap each other.


OK. Back to square one on that one.
@ 2022-04-20 11:18 PM (#30557 - in reply to #30522) (#30557) Top

Carlos



Posts: 5

Country : France

Carlos posted @ 2022-04-20 11:18 PM

Hello,
It would be convenient to know if we have to use only paper/pencil for the optimization problems, in order to be rated on the same criteria...

Edited by Carlos 2022-04-20 11:43 PM
@ 2022-04-21 12:20 AM (#30558 - in reply to #30557) (#30558) Top

Riad Khanmagomedov



Posts: 187
10020202020
Country : Russia

Riad Khanmagomedov posted @ 2022-04-21 12:20 AM

Carlos - 2022-04-20 11:18 PM

Hello,
It would be convenient to know if we have to use only paper/pencil for the optimization problems, in order to be rated on the same criteria...

Hello,
I always use only paper and pencil, because I am not a programmer.
@ 2022-04-21 12:28 AM (#30559 - in reply to #30522) (#30559) Top

Riad Khanmagomedov



Posts: 187
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Country : Russia

Riad Khanmagomedov posted @ 2022-04-21 12:28 AM

I see errors in some answers to 12. Record score. Two white players cannot pass to each other if there is a black player on the line between them. And two black players cannot be connected by a straight line if there is a white player between them.
@ 2022-04-21 12:50 PM (#30560 - in reply to #30558) (#30560) Top

CJK



Posts: 10

Country : Germany

CJK posted @ 2022-04-21 12:50 PM

Riad Khanmagomedov - 2022-04-20 7:20 PM
Hello,
I always use only paper and pencil, because I am not a programmer.

Hello Riad,
I have to admit that it is a little bit frustrating that this simple question cannot be clearly answered by you, even after being repeated five times. I do not really understand why it is that difficult to just say "yes, programming is allowed" or "no, programming is not allowed".
To be clear: I have no clear opinion about whether it should be allowed or not (I haven't programmed yet and I probably won't have time for it anymore), but I dislike the fact that you ignore one specific question for a whole week while answering every other question just a few hours later. For this contest it may be too late, but please don't do this in future contests again.
@ 2022-04-21 7:10 PM (#30561 - in reply to #30522) (#30561) Top

jo97



Posts: 1

Country : France

jo97 posted @ 2022-04-21 7:10 PM

Hello%2C%0D%0AFor+the+optimizer+equation%2C+exponent+and+negation+are+allow+or+not%3F+Because+technically+exponent+can+be+write+without+using+additionnal+arithmetic+sign%3A%0D%0A9%3D3%C2%B2+et+9+%3D+3%5E2%3F
@ 2022-04-21 7:36 PM (#30562 - in reply to #30560) (#30562) Top

Riad Khanmagomedov



Posts: 187
10020202020
Country : Russia

Riad Khanmagomedov posted @ 2022-04-21 7:36 PM

CJK - 2022-04-21 12:50 PM

Riad Khanmagomedov - 2022-04-20 7:20 PM
Hello,
I always use only paper and pencil, because I am not a programmer.

Hello Riad,
I have to admit that it is a little bit frustrating that this simple question cannot be clearly answered by you, even after being repeated five times. I do not really understand why it is that difficult to just say "yes, programming is allowed" or "no, programming is not allowed".
To be clear: I have no clear opinion about whether it should be allowed or not (I haven't programmed yet and I probably won't have time for it anymore), but I dislike the fact that you ignore one specific question for a whole week while answering every other question just a few hours later. For this contest it may be too late, but please don't do this in future contests again.

Hello Christian,
If I knew the answers to all the questions, of course I would have suggested it. I don't program and participate in all tournaments without resorting to this process. Let's leave this question to the discretion of each puzzler.
@ 2022-04-21 8:15 PM (#30563 - in reply to #30522) (#30563) Top

Swagatam



Posts: 45
2020
Country : India

Swagatam posted @ 2022-04-21 8:15 PM

A couple of questions: For optimizer puzzles, any optimizer puzzle

1. How do you approach to final solution from your initial guess/solution?
2. How do you become aware of that you have reached to the optimum solution?
@ 2022-04-21 8:55 PM (#30564 - in reply to #30561) (#30564) Top

Riad Khanmagomedov



Posts: 187
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Country : Russia

Riad Khanmagomedov posted @ 2022-04-21 8:55 PM

Please do not use the exponent operator in 11. From 0 to 9.
@ 2022-04-21 8:58 PM (#30565 - in reply to #30561) (#30565) Top

Riad Khanmagomedov



Posts: 187
10020202020
Country : Russia

Riad Khanmagomedov posted @ 2022-04-21 8:58 PM

%5BQUOTE%5Djo97+%2D+2022%2D04%2D21++7%3A10+PM%0D%0A%0D%0AHello%2C%0D%0AFor+the+optimizer+equation%2C+exponent+and+negation+are+allow+or+not%3F+Because+technically+exponent+can+be+write+without+using+additionnal+arithmetic+sign%3A%0D%0A9%3D3%C2%B2+et+9+%3D+3%5E2%3F%5B%2FQUOTE%5D%0D%0AHello%2C%0D%0ANot+allowed%2E
@ 2022-04-21 10:47 PM (#30566 - in reply to #30563) (#30566) Top

auroux



Posts: 126
10020
Country : France

auroux posted @ 2022-04-21 10:47 PM

Swagatam - 2022-04-21 7:15 AMA couple of questions: For optimizer puzzles, any optimizer puzzle1. How do you approach to final solution from your initial guess/solution?2. How do you become aware of that you have reached to the optimum solution?
That depends on the specific optimizer, but basically I first try to build a solution, any solution. Then to think about how happy I am with that solution in the context of the quantity to be optimized, whether my solution could be improved by small changes, or whether a redesign from scratch, building the solution a different way, would likely give a much better answer. After a few attempts, usually, one has a sense of whether one has produced something good (possibly close to optimal) or if it feels that there are some guiding principles that aren't understood yet. And of course, often, there are BIG surprises when discovering what other people have managed to do with the same optimizer problem. I don't want to comment too much while the contest is going on, plus I'd risk making a fool of myself if I made hasty pronouncements and it turns out my solutions are really really far from the optimal ones, but after initial skepticism I became quite fond of this year's optimizers. I think they are extremely well designed, in the sense that one can profitably approach them by hand and get a sense of how they work; and, if I dare say so, I don't think computer brute force search would be particularly more helpful on these than careful thinking and formulating intuition.
@ 2022-04-21 10:52 PM (#30567 - in reply to #30559) (#30567) Top

auroux



Posts: 126
10020
Country : France

auroux posted @ 2022-04-21 10:52 PM

Riad Khanmagomedov - 2022-04-20 11:28 AMI see errors in some answers to 12. Record score. Two white players cannot pass to each other if there is a black player on the line between them. And two black players cannot be connected by a straight line if there is a white player between them.
I hope I am not one of those with errors. I have a solution that works well on paper, and proofread what I input into the submission box, but still am not confident that I encoded my solution correctly. Forming the answer key was the least enjoyable aspect of working on this optimizer, perhaps because I feel really bad at encoding/decoding grid coordinates when letters are used in both directions. (The problem itself was very interesting.)

Edited by auroux 2022-04-21 10:55 PM
@ 2022-04-22 10:49 AM (#30574 - in reply to #30522) (#30574) Top

kiwijam



Posts: 180
10020202020
Country : New Zealand

kiwijam posted @ 2022-04-22 10:49 AM

I was seeing strange messages earlier like "contest is over" and "click link to participate unofficially", even though there is still 13 hours left.
But when I returned to the answer page after submitting it looked normal, so I think they can be ignored...
@ 2022-04-22 10:57 AM (#30575 - in reply to #30574) (#30575) Top

Administrator



200010001001001001002020
Country : India

Administrator posted @ 2022-04-22 10:57 AM

kiwijam - 2022-04-22 10:49 AM

I was seeing strange messages earlier like "contest is over" and "click link to participate unofficially", even though there is still 13 hours left.
But when I returned to the answer page after submitting it looked normal, so I think they can be ignored...
The contest end time was set incorrectly, hence the confusing error message. It was sorted few hours back.
If anyone else is seeing message like "contest is over", request to refresh the submission page.
@ 2022-04-22 2:35 PM (#30577 - in reply to #30566) (#30577) Top

Swagatam



Posts: 45
2020
Country : India

Swagatam posted @ 2022-04-22 2:35 PM

auroux - 2022-04-21 10:47 PM

Swagatam - 2022-04-21 7:15 AMA couple of questions: For optimizer puzzles, any optimizer puzzle1. How do you approach to final solution from your initial guess/solution?2. How do you become aware of that you have reached to the optimum solution?
That depends on the specific optimizer, but basically I first try to build a solution, any solution. Then to think about how happy I am with that solution in the context of the quantity to be optimized, whether my solution could be improved by small changes, or whether a redesign from scratch, building the solution a different way, would likely give a much better answer. After a few attempts, usually, one has a sense of whether one has produced something good (possibly close to optimal) or if it feels that there are some guiding principles that aren't understood yet. And of course, often, there are BIG surprises when discovering what other people have managed to do with the same optimizer problem. I don't want to comment too much while the contest is going on, plus I'd risk making a fool of myself if I made hasty pronouncements and it turns out my solutions are really really far from the optimal ones, but after initial skepticism I became quite fond of this year's optimizers. I think they are extremely well designed, in the sense that one can profitably approach them by hand and get a sense of how they work; and, if I dare say so, I don't think computer brute force search would be particularly more helpful on these than careful thinking and formulating intuition.

Thank you @auroux for the comment. Actually this is how I solve these problems: firstly, finding an initial solution/taking a guess, then improving the solution till I'm satisfied. But, this time I thought maybe by any chance there is another way of doing this; like in other puzzles, they have very good and well designed pathway to reach to the one and only solution and if you follow the logical pathway you know that every step you take you are correct and will reach to the only solution. For optimizer puzzles, in the same way I can reach to a solution but most of the times I can't be sure whether it is optimal. I can only know that after checking top solutions once the contest is over. Again, thank you for your opinion, this clears my dilemma.
@ 2022-04-22 3:04 PM (#30578 - in reply to #30537) (#30578) Top

Swagatam



Posts: 45
2020
Country : India

Swagatam posted @ 2022-04-22 3:04 PM

About the Record Score Example posted by Kiwijam, is that a valid solution? Because, the instruction says that own goal is not allowed. Here, BLACK numbered 6 player is on the row (row R) from where he can shoot the ball to his own goal. Similarly for WHITE numbered 3 player, he can shoot the ball diagonally to his own goal. Or, is it just calculation of own goal is not allowed?
@ 2022-04-22 3:32 PM (#30579 - in reply to #30522) (#30579) Top

kiwijam



Posts: 180
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Country : New Zealand

kiwijam posted @ 2022-04-22 3:32 PM

Hi Swagatam, Riad's example has players at those same locations too. They are allowed to stand where they can see their own goal. But when you count the number of goal paths, you can only include paths that end at the opposite goal from the start goalkeeper #1.
@ 2022-04-22 3:39 PM (#30580 - in reply to #30579) (#30580) Top

Swagatam



Posts: 45
2020
Country : India

Swagatam posted @ 2022-04-22 3:39 PM

kiwijam - 2022-04-22 3:32 PM

Hi Swagatam, Riad's example has players at those same locations too. They are allowed to stand where they can see their own goal. But when you count the number of goal paths, you can only include paths that end at the opposite goal from the start goalkeeper #1.

Oh, I see now. Thank you.
@ 2022-04-22 4:05 PM (#30581 - in reply to #30522) (#30581) Top

Carlos



Posts: 5

Country : France

Carlos posted @ 2022-04-22 4:05 PM

Hello,
I need clarifications about the second optimizer puzzle:
- Is it allowed for a side of an equality to begin with a _PLUS_ or - sign? Such as 8_PLUS_3 = _PLUS_11 or 5 - 6 = -1?
- Can two arithmetic signs be consecutive, like in 8x-3 = 6x-4? Here, the cross symbol 'x' and the minus sign '-' are next to each other. Is it a valid equation?
@ 2022-04-22 6:50 PM (#30582 - in reply to #30522) (#30582) Top

prasanna16391



Posts: 1629
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Country : India

prasanna16391 posted @ 2022-04-22 6:50 PM

From Riad: of these, only 5-6=-1 is valid.
Riad Khanmagomedov's April Contest — 15th to 22nd April 202267 posts • Page 2 of 3 • 1 2 3
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