Well, We DO have Beginners' Contests for that. Admittedly, we've had just one Beginners' Puzzle Contest so far which was probably on the tough side, but we are working on a format there and it will be here in the future. Give us time :) Monthly tests are designed to have a world championship-related structure in terms of difficulty and finish-ability. The typical guideline for the monthly tests, barring special ones like sprint tests, etc. is that about 3-4 people should finish the test. Its fine to have an opinion that maybe that structure should be more lenient sometimes, but the problem comes when its pinpointed to this test just because of individual expectations that "classic puzzles = easy puzzles".

My main problem with Kishore's criticism is that it wasn't said that this test would contain easier puzzles, or that it would be more finish-able than others. This test was only said to be filled with classic puzzles, which it was. So its not like the author claimed something wrong. Its really unfair to criticize saying you expected there to be easier/finishable puzzles, especially when you yourself say that the Kakuro (highest pointer) is one you attempted.

There were quite many low and medium pointer puzzles in the test. I guess solving these puzzles will give more confidence to everyone. Since kakuro was the highest pointer we can easily assume that it ll take more time. So it must be the participant's choice of solving order. Personally i feel the puzzles were too good and kudos to Matej. Definitely i ll try solving the puzzles offline as classics will be a good platform to start from the scratch. Thanks to Matej again for the Classics set.

Edited by rvarun 2013-10-26 10:16 PM

How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were?	Fairly balanced
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Fairly Nice
What was your opinion about the answer key extraction?	Answer keys could have been better
How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test?	A bit too many puzzles
Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty?	Many puzzles were worth too much or too little
What was your opinion of the booklet formatting and printing?	Just right

How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were?	Fairly balanced
What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles?	Just right
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Average
What was your opinion about the answer key extraction?	Answer keys could have been better
How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test?	Just right
Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty?	Most puzzles were worth too much or too little
What was your opinion of the booklet formatting and printing?	Just right

How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were?	Fairly balanced
What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles?	Just right
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Fairly Nice
What was your opinion about the answer key extraction?	Mostly perfect answer keys
How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test?	Just right
Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty?	Many puzzles were worth too much or too little
What was your opinion of the booklet formatting and printing?	Just right

How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were?	Fairly balanced
What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles?	Just right
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Fairly Nice
What was your opinion about the answer key extraction?	Perfect answer keys
Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty?	Many puzzles were worth too much or too little
What was your opinion of the booklet formatting and printing?	Just right

Wow, that's crazy! I also spent lots of time on Kakuro due to a wrong digit at the left of the grid...Anyway: fun puzzles!Denis

I think kishy72 has a point. Setting the duration of a test such that only the top solvers can finish is a poor decision when instant grading is available. Why is not the test longer so that more people can enjoy all puzzles?

With the current test length the selection of puzzles is very important for an average solver. I think it should not be that important unless you want to increase the influence of the luck factor in the rankings.

I still don't understand this, because its like every test. For anyone who can't finish a test, puzzle selection matters. Thats not luck. It would be luck if points distribution was not given and someone went and attempted the Kakuro thinking it to be easy or the Akari thinking they'd get more points for it. But its known which are the lower pointers and the higher pointers, its upto the solver to select the puzzles in a way to optimize their performance. Thats a part of competing. Every Monthly test barring exceptions is typically designed so that the top 3-4 players can finish and there's a few easy puzzles for the rest. In fact, this test has more easy puzzles than others, in my opinion. Its not like 75 minutes is an unheard of time, in fact the ever successful TVCs are also of 75 minutes.

The guidelines LMI gives to the authors was followed here. There were a few easy puzzles, and it was finishable for top solvers. There was never claims that it would be otherwise. Why pinpoint this test on being timed poorly, when it followed the general guidelines?

Obviously, if the discussion is that the general guidelines themselves should be re-visited, then thats a completely different matter. I'll again point to the existence of Beginners' Contests and the need to make the distinction that the Monthly tests are set based on general WPC difficulty and finish-ability.

This is how LMI tests work. Top few solvers solving all puzzles in given time, be it 120 mins or 75 mins. This test is same as any other LMI test. I dont find any difference in it in my experience of LMI tests. The same goes for sudoku tests also. There were sudoku tests with 60 or 75 mins. But the same feedbacks does not come there.

It's probably because this is a classic, and people (incorrectly) assumes that a classic contest should be easier. While I have done enough puzzle contests to know better, I can't say I didn't have the hope that it will be a bit easier than usual myself, especially right after the WPC.

For the record, my previous post was not directed at this contest in particular, but the contest scheme in general. I think we can have a few "Round 8"'s once in a while.

On another note, there is no efficient mechanism for someone to check their answers if they decide to continue the contest after it is over. The answer keys aren't displayed until after the whole duration is over, and you can't use the submit form to check anymore. Can this be improved upon?

Edited by achan1058 2013-10-27 3:07 PM

For Round 8, I'll compare it to Puzzle Marathon. Instead of one finish-able connected large puzzle, it is a bunch of large puzzles that are mostly finish-able in time by many folks. So there IS something like that once in a while.

Another point is, 6 people have already finished DWBH and its only midway through Sunday. Many have come close to finishing. So I think it IS actually more finish-able, so its funny its getting criticized for poor timing. Its important to keep a standard in normal tests, because if you're extending it to say top 20 finish-ability, you'll never please everyone anyway, and then it becomes inconsistent for no reason. erring towards say 8-10 once in a while is fine, but it shouldn't be expected unless explicitly mentioned.

As for the entering answer keys, thats apparently been unintentionally allowed this time. Those who didn't close the page upon submission would've found out that the "Submit all answers" key still works to check answers. We didn't realize this till 2-3 people began trying and actually entered keys beyond 75 minutes. You're right, maybe this is a good thing to keep in general, at least when Instant Grading is available.

Oh, by Round 8, I meant how easy that round was, not the structure of the round itself. At least 1/3 of the room have completely finished that round.

Anyways, thanks for looking into whether you can keep the submit button.

Edited by achan1058 2013-10-27 4:13 PM

I meant it in the same way. The Puzzle Marathon Puzzles are finished by a good number of people too. Me in my capacity at around upper-mid table (37th) finished all the puzzles within normal time in this year's marathon. I'm sure many people finished at least some of them within the 60 minutes of normal time.

The reason I compared structures is because it works in that structure, because solving the puzzle in itself is the challenge, contrasting to solving a bunch of puzzles in a controlled time environment like normal rounds.

How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were?	Perfectly balanced
What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles?	Just right
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Very nice
What was your opinion about the answer key extraction?	Mostly perfect answer keys
How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test?	Just right
What was your opinion of the booklet formatting and printing?	Just right

I agree with that comment, it is good to have all kinds of contests. If we go by the poll results here, there are certainly many takers of Sprint tests. Unfortunately, we just had only one more sprint test in 2012 after the first one.

While Marathons are comparable to Sprint tests in terms of finish-ability, each kind of contests has its own fun and challenges. So I don't think one of them should/can replace the other.

For your information for the last 15 or so months that i have been a part of LMI ,I dont remember any sudoku test in which the time duration was for 60 mins except LMI Screen Test.I had expressed my feedback there too though for a different reason.So it is not that in only puzzle tests that feedbacks of these sort occur.

And please dont equate sudokus and puzzles on an equal platform.If you call say a random person from a group of persons and ask him to choose from a sudoku and a star battle or a sudoku and a fillomino or so on ,it is very probable that he/she will possess the skills required to complete the sudoku rather than the puzzle.This is because sudokus are universally popular and well known.So basically what i m trying to put forth through this is that given an LMI test with a short time duration ,it is more likely that people will solve a lot more sudokus than a lot more puzzles within the time frame which in turn minimizes the short time factor to an extent in case of sudoku tests not to mention the fact that it has not occured so far in a LMI sudoku test.I'l clarify this too.My feedback has got nothing to do with the quality of the puzzles which were on an absolutely high level as usual.It is only the timing of the test that has let me down.

That's what I like to hear. I am surprised that wasn't more of these. In fact, that one happened long before I started doing contests on LMI.

How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were?	Fairly balanced
What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles?	Just right
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Very nice
What was your opinion about the answer key extraction?	Mostly perfect answer keys
How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test?	Just right
Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty?	Most puzzles were worth the right amount
What was your opinion of the booklet formatting and printing?	Just right

Well, there is none planned at the moment as well. That also means, potential test authors know what they can target to write.

How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were?	Perfectly balanced
What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles?	Just right
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Fairly Nice
What was your opinion about the answer key extraction?	Answer keys could have been better
How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test?	A bit too many puzzles
Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty?	Most puzzles were worth the right amount
What was your opinion of the booklet formatting and printing?	Just right

To make it clear, my comment was not particularly about this test. I think any test with instant grading can last longer than usual to have more fair ranking of the average solvers. If instant grading were not available the current duration of the test would be perfect, because making it longer would cause early finishers to risk losing a lot of bonus points due to possible mistakes. However, I don't see any disadvantages of making the test longer when instant grading is available.

Just my two cents:

Team USA had a similar discussion to this at the recent WPC -- how rounds can feel much friendlier and fairer by letting more solvers finish. We agreed that an underappreciated feature of Instant Grading is that it really means you can now run any test indefinitely with some form of "Twist" scoring (here, that might be 80% after 60 minutes, 50% after 90 minutes) because solvers are entering solutions throughout the test.

I would not have minded this test running more like the WPC Mini Marathon or LMI Puzzle Marathon tests which seem to be the best solving format for all solvers from beginners to experts. It certainly removes some of the frustrations from puzzle selection, puzzle scoring, and round timing. Of course rules decisions should be left to the authors and LMI organizers, but I wonder if a general trend towards "friendlier" puzzle sets and rules is one way to help grow the audience of competitors.

Edited by motris 2013-10-28 2:09 AM

How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were?	Perfectly balanced
What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles?	Just right
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Very nice
What was your opinion about the answer key extraction?	Mostly perfect answer keys
How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test?	Just right
Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty?	Most puzzles were worth the right amount
What was your opinion of the booklet formatting and printing?	Just right

How balanced do you think the puzzle types of this test were?	Fairly balanced
What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles?	Just right
What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test?	Very nice
What was your opinion about the answer key extraction?	Mostly perfect answer keys
How did you feel about the length / time limit for this test?	A bit too many puzzles
Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty?	Most puzzles were worth the right amount
What was your opinion of the booklet formatting and printing?	Just right