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Hybrids - LMI March'11 Puzzle Test56 posts • Page 2 of 3 • 1 2 3
@ 2011-03-13 11:22 AM (#3709 - in reply to #3653) (#3709) Top

Kota



Posts: 32
20
Country : Japan

Kota posted @ 2011-03-13 11:22 AM

Very nice puzzles, so I enjoyed two hours. Thank you for Bram!

By the way, in Japan where I am from, many people are suffering from the earthquakes and tsunami which happend on March 11th.
I live in Tokyo which is far from the hypocenter, so there is little damage around me.

From the Internet and so on, I heard the news that so many people are anxious about the present circumstances in Japan all over the world.
I appreciate for the care from other countries. And I think that it is happy that I solve the puzzles as usual.

Thank you for reading.

Kota
@ 2011-03-13 11:29 AM (#3710 - in reply to #3709) (#3710) Top

debmohanty




1000500100100100202020
Country : India

debmohanty posted @ 2011-03-13 11:29 AM

Hi Kota, Thank you for kind update about the quake and tsunami. What we gather from internet and newspapers is that it is really devastating.
We can just pray and hope for well-being of everyone there.

Also read from deu's blog that he had to walk few miles from his office to home. Hope everything is well there too.

Deb

@ 2011-03-13 5:58 PM (#3711 - in reply to #3653) (#3711) Top

reesylou



Posts: 10

Country : Australia

reesylou posted @ 2011-03-13 5:58 PM

I enjoyed this test very much, and managed to complete 6 puzzles (which for me is good) - I am not yet practised enough to solve fast.
Unfortunately, I made a typo in one entry, and a mistake in the puzzle for another... the worst thing was my final puzzle tht I submitted with about 1:30 to go (according to the counter) didn't get accepted :(

However, I will be taking the remaining puzzles to solve on the train - I usually give uncompleted puzzles to my 4 yo to draw on. So in that regard, this is probably the best (most suited to my puzzle interests) LMI I have attempted (even though I did enjoy some of the other ones).
@ 2011-03-13 9:07 PM (#3712 - in reply to #3711) (#3712) Top

debmohanty




1000500100100100202020
Country : India

debmohanty posted @ 2011-03-13 9:07 PM

reesylou - 2011-03-13 5:58 PM
the worst thing was my final puzzle tht I submitted with about 1:30 to go (according to the counter) didn't get accepted :(

It is unlikely that the 'counter' ran slowly (90 seconds is a lot of time), so I would tend to think that it could be a connectivity issue.
Thanks for participating in this test (and other tests too). Glad that you enjoy these tests.
@ 2011-03-13 10:11 PM (#3713 - in reply to #3653) (#3713) Top

Fernando



Posts: 1

Country : Argentina

Fernando posted @ 2011-03-13 10:11 PM

I won't be able to do the test but it seems amazing.
Thanks for this posibility.
I'm from Argentina and we are so far away of this level, but I try anyway.
Thanks again and best wishes to Japan.
@ 2011-03-14 1:33 AM (#3714 - in reply to #3653) (#3714) Top

yureklis



Posts: 183
10020202020
Country : Turkey

yureklis posted @ 2011-03-14 1:33 AM

It was delightful test! I had a lot fun. :) Thank you very much. I could be make better, but in any case this result enough for me. Thank you very much again, Bram.
@ 2011-03-14 1:46 AM (#3715 - in reply to #3653) (#3715) Top

Calavera



Posts: 13

Country : Germany

Calavera posted @ 2011-03-14 1:46 AM

Liked the test very much but I'm not a big fan of bonus points of this kind. It makes the difference between stronger and weaker solvers even bigger without any upside I'm aware of. Especially regarding the Puzzle rating of LMI it might have an undesired effect...
@ 2011-03-14 1:54 AM (#3716 - in reply to #3715) (#3716) Top

vopani



Posts: 735
50010010020
Country : India

vopani posted @ 2011-03-14 1:54 AM

Beautiful puzzles Bram. Thoroughly enjoyed the test... :-)
@ 2011-03-14 4:43 AM (#3717 - in reply to #3653) (#3717) Top

Fred76




Posts: 337
10010010020
Country : Switzerland

Fred76 posted @ 2011-03-14 4:43 AM

Hi,

I've just solved a few grids. I didn't read the instruction booklet before beginning, just look at puzzle types, and I wanted to do some. But those I solved were very good. So I think other ones were good, too

I just asked myself a quick question: why bonus are bigger (more %) for easy puzzles and smaller for hard puzzles? Instinctively I would have done the opposite (or just the same rate) and I can't understand what is the logic of that. (Just for my curiosity )

Thanks

Fred

Edited by Fred76 2011-03-14 4:44 AM
@ 2011-03-14 4:45 AM (#3718 - in reply to #3712) (#3718) Top

reesylou



Posts: 10

Country : Australia

reesylou posted @ 2011-03-14 4:45 AM

debmohanty - 2011-03-14 2:07 AM

reesylou - 2011-03-13 5:58 PM
the worst thing was my final puzzle tht I submitted with about 1:30 to go (according to the counter) didn't get accepted :(

It is unlikely that the 'counter' ran slowly (90 seconds is a lot of time), so I would tend to think that it could be a connectivity issue.
Thanks for participating in this test (and other tests too). Glad that you enjoy these tests.


Connectivity is entirely likely to be the issue, I have recently noticed that sometimes it takes 2 or 3 attempts to reach a webpage... but haven't had issues once I get there. (I think it is time to change ISP)
@ 2011-03-14 5:23 AM (#3719 - in reply to #3709) (#3719) Top

easonrevant



Posts: 7

Country : United States

easonrevant posted @ 2011-03-14 5:23 AM

Hello all,

I had a quick question (that might be a FAQ)-- I was able to register for this site but when I typed in my login ID and password and country then clicked "login" to start taking the test, basically nothing happened except the login button disabled. Also, I did not receive a code to open the puzzle pdf. I'm a beginner, so maybe I did something wrong?
@ 2011-03-14 5:28 AM (#3720 - in reply to #3719) (#3720) Top

Administrator



20001000100100100100
Country : India

Administrator posted @ 2011-03-14 5:28 AM

easonrevant - 2011-03-14 5:23 AM

Hello all,

I had a quick question (that might be a FAQ)-- I was able to register for this site but when I typed in my login ID and password and country then clicked "login" to start taking the test, basically nothing happened except the login button disabled. Also, I did not receive a code to open the puzzle pdf. I'm a beginner, so maybe I did something wrong?

Definitely strange. If you are doing what you mentioned, that is the correct step to login.
From the database I see that your country is still empty.

So, basically, fill Login Id, password, and country. And click on Login. It is very surprising when you say "Login" button is disabled, but you also "Clicked on" it.
Is your password single character or 2 characters?
@ 2011-03-14 5:33 AM (#3721 - in reply to #3720) (#3721) Top

easonrevant



Posts: 7

Country : United States

easonrevant posted @ 2011-03-14 5:33 AM

Administrator - 2011-03-13 6:28 PM

So, basically, fill Login Id, password, and country. And click on Login. It is very surprising when you say "Login" button is disabled, but you also "Clicked on" it.
Is your password single character or 2 characters?


Thank you for the quick response! Ah, my password uses upper case letters, lower case letters, and numbers. It is 8 characters long. I will try to go to my profile and update my country, thanks for pointing out that it is empty.
@ 2011-03-14 5:35 AM (#3722 - in reply to #3721) (#3722) Top

Administrator



20001000100100100100
Country : India

Administrator posted @ 2011-03-14 5:35 AM

easonrevant - 2011-03-14 5:33 AM

Thank you for the quick response! Ah, my password uses upper case letters, lower case letters, and numbers. It is 8 characters long. I will try to go to my profile and update my country, thanks for pointing out that it is empty.

The country can be updated from the test page itself, so that is not the issue.
Anyway - this test will be over now (in few seconds) - but you can still fix the login problem and get set for the next test.

Post here or send me a PM, if you still face issues.
@ 2011-03-14 5:42 AM (#3723 - in reply to #3653) (#3723) Top

MellowMelon



100
Country : United States

MellowMelon posted @ 2011-03-14 5:42 AM

Now that full results are out, it appears that the Extra section did in fact count for everyone. In page 2 of the instruction booklet it says that section would only count if 18 puzzles were solved correctly. Was that changed? It didn't affect the standings at the top since no one worked on them, but for the past few days I've been baffled by the solving statistics on those puzzles, when no one ever had more than 18 puzzles solved.
@ 2011-03-14 5:46 AM (#3724 - in reply to #3723) (#3724) Top

debmohanty




1000500100100100202020
Country : India

debmohanty posted @ 2011-03-14 5:46 AM

MellowMelon - 2011-03-14 5:42 AM

Now that full results are out, it appears that the Extra section did in fact count for everyone. In page 2 of the instruction booklet it says that section would only count if 18 puzzles were solved correctly. Was that changed? It didn't affect the standings at the top since no one worked on them, but for the past few days I've been baffled by the solving statistics on those puzzles, when no one ever had more than 18 puzzles solved.

Just that players didn't read the very details in the IB. As many as 10 players have solved (correctly) X1 dice. I'm not sure how to deal with this. Giving them 0 for something they spent time on is probably harsh.
I'll discuss with Bram and decide something soon. But as you mentioned, the top 10 does not change.
@ 2011-03-14 6:15 AM (#3725 - in reply to #3724) (#3725) Top

debmohanty




1000500100100100202020
Country : India

debmohanty posted @ 2011-03-14 6:15 AM

We still need to finish the manual checking for all the puzzles for possible credits.

But the top 10 results are already checked, so the winners for Puzzle Hybrids are deu, MellowMelon and motris - Congratulations.

Thank you everyone for participating.
@ 2011-03-14 6:37 AM (#3726 - in reply to #3653) (#3726) Top

Valezius



Posts: 66
202020
Country : Hungary

Valezius posted @ 2011-03-14 6:37 AM

Many thanks to Bram for the good puzzles.
This is my best result, but I missed the medal, maybe next time.
Unfortunately I choosed the Sea battle, what just 3 people could solve, and i got 70 points instead of the hard Worm sudoku. And I made an other mistake too.

I have a suggestion for the authors.
In my opinion in this test and in the last month the answer system was too difficult.
You should use Serkan's answer system. Choose some rows and the answer is the number of squares in the connecting blocks. For instance in the slitherlink's example the first row is 21. This is more easier than counting the cells in EVERY ROW.
And you could use this system in A2, A3, maybe B1, D2, D3, E1!!!, E2,E3!!!
An uniform system is better than 10 differents answer format.

My favourite puzzles in this set:
Star battle, Sea battle easy, and the two Pentopia. It is a very good penta variation. I will use it on the WPC ;)
The X1 and X3 puzzles are really good too. Unfortunately I could solve them just after the test :)

Finally, I congratulate the best solvers.

Edited by Valezius 2011-03-14 6:42 AM
@ 2011-03-14 10:37 AM (#3727 - in reply to #3653) (#3727) Top

Administrator



20001000100100100100
Country : India

Administrator posted @ 2011-03-14 10:37 AM

Solutions Booklet is uploaded here
@ 2011-03-14 10:39 AM (#3728 - in reply to #3726) (#3728) Top

debmohanty




1000500100100100202020
Country : India

debmohanty posted @ 2011-03-14 10:39 AM

Valezius - 2011-03-14 6:37 AM

I have a suggestion for the authors.
In my opinion in this test and in the last month the answer system was too difficult.
You should use Serkan's answer system. Choose some rows and the answer is the number of squares in the connecting blocks. For instance in the slitherlink's example the first row is 21. This is more easier than counting the cells in EVERY ROW.
And you could use this system in A2, A3, maybe B1, D2, D3, E1!!!, E2,E3!!!
An uniform system is better than 10 differents answer format.

That is very good point Zoltan.
I think it is also important for us to have some kind of uniform "answer keys" across the monthly tests. [ for example, all loop kind of puzzles should have same answering system across all tests ]
@ 2011-03-14 10:58 AM (#3729 - in reply to #3653) (#3729) Top

neerajmehrotra



Posts: 327
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Country : India

neerajmehrotra posted @ 2011-03-14 10:58 AM

Nice Puzzles.........although difficult from my standards.......but happy with my result. Congrats to all the winners.........and to Bram for excellent set of Puzzles......
ABC was very interesting and cud solve it after the test was over.
@ 2011-03-14 4:53 PM (#3730 - in reply to #3653) (#3730) Top

forcolin




Posts: 170
100202020
Country : ITALY

forcolin posted @ 2011-03-14 4:53 PM

It was a very good and innovative set of puzzles.
Initially was a bit frightened but (as Melllow Melon has already pointed out) the competition diagrams were probably easier than those in the instrution booklet.
Congratulations to the solvers and thanks to the author and the organizers.
Also my best wishes to the Japanese players and to their country in this difficult moment.
stefano
@ 2011-03-14 5:19 PM (#3731 - in reply to #3653) (#3731) Top

ksun48



Posts: 29
20
Country : Canada

ksun48 posted @ 2011-03-14 5:19 PM

ABC was an awesome puzzle! Unfortunately, it ate through 45 minutes of my time. (I feel proud to have solved this one, though)
Great puzzles.

Edited by ksun48 2011-03-14 5:19 PM
@ 2011-03-14 9:22 PM (#3732 - in reply to #3724) (#3732) Top

figonometry



Posts: 30
20
Country : Canada

figonometry posted @ 2011-03-14 9:22 PM

debmohanty - 2011-03-14 5:46 AM
MellowMelon - 2011-03-14 5:42 AMNow that full results are out, it appears that the Extra section did in fact count for everyone. In page 2 of the instruction booklet it says that section would only count if 18 puzzles were solved correctly. Was that changed? It didn't affect the standings at the top since no one worked on them, but for the past few days I've been baffled by the solving statistics on those puzzles, when no one ever had more than 18 puzzles solved.
Just that players didn't read the very details in the IB. As many as 10 players have solved (correctly) X1 dice. I'm not sure how to deal with this. Giving them 0 for something they spent time on is probably harsh.I'll discuss with Bram and decide something soon. But as you mentioned, the top 10 does not change.
I had at least three reading comprehension failures on the test. If my score for one of the extra puzzles doesn't count, I really have no one to blame but myself.

However, in the future, I'd rather not have puzzles on the test that I'm not supposed to solve. At the very least, they should be a separate PDF.
@ 2011-03-15 1:33 AM (#3733 - in reply to #3653) (#3733) Top

Para



Posts: 315
100100100
Country : The Netherlands

Para posted @ 2011-03-15 1:33 AM

So, my first try at designing a test is over. It was interesting to see what happens behind the scenes. It was a fun experience for me and glad to see people enjoyed the test too. Thanks for the comments, they are appreciated.

Congrats to Deu for finishing first and MellowMelon and Motris also finishing on the podium.

A little bit too bad no-one managed to solve all puzzles. I guess working with the same puzzle types eventually leads to a bit of an underestimation of the difficulty. Many puzzles were second draft. Many of the first draft pzzles were much harder than what you some solved now. Especially the Hard Corral, Hard Worm Sudoku and Seethrough were made easier. That might be part of the reason I underestimated the total solving time in the end.

The solving stats are mostly what I expected. I had anticipated that the Hard Worm Sudoku, Outside Skyscraper and Sea Battle would probably get the least solves. I am a bit confused on the low solve rate for the Seethrough. I can only guess that the logic involved wasn't properly grabbed. I'll try to show later how the design was supposed to go.
The outside skyscraper, it could have been a bit too hard. When looking at some solving entries, this puzzle might have hold up some puzzlers and prevented the solving from some other puzzles. The logic path should have probably have been a bit less restricted.
The Hard worm Sudoku got the amount of solves I had guessed. At first I had made 9by9 grids. They work but were just too hard for the test. It was probably because 18 clues on a jigsaw sudoku already pretty tough, let alone with an unknown grid at the start.
The low solve on the Sea Battle Hard might have also been the missing of some logic. The easy sea battle has a minimal structure: N/2 areas for N ships. This forces no ships to cross any bold borders. The Hard one, like the example, is the other way around. There are 14 areas for 28 ship parts. This forced all ships to only lay across bold borders as each area had 2 ship parts from 2 different ships. This logic severely limits the amount of places the size 4 ships can go. This was picked up by the testers, so didn't think it would be a problem. I'm not sure if this was the actual problem when solving, but it's my best thought as these are really the key realisations you have to have about the genre.

I also expected the puzzle ratings to be about the same. My own favourite hybrids to make were the Pentopia, Outside Skyscraper Sudoku and Worm Sudoku. I understand the Alphanumeric Dice puzzles might not everyone's favourite, but it's just a type of puzzle I always enjoy solving.

Some comment answers.

The reason there was a bonus section was obviously that the test was intended to have 6 sections for 24 puzzles. The second to last draft still had this and I thought it might be okay at first, but especially with the ABC in the one section I figured it might be too much. The ABC isn't very speedsolving friendly because of the sum sizes. I thought the hybrid was a good way to use the logic in a more speedsolving friendly way as the sums are much smaller. After seeing where the problems with MellowMelon's test lay, I was pretty much convinced it would be too long. I wasn't 100% sure how to adjust things though as I liked to have this section in the test in some way, because it was different from the puzzles normally seen in puzzle tests. They are both variants that are featured in Breinbrekers, but not seen much anywhere else. Eventually after some dicussion with Deb, we decided to build in this section as a bonus section instead of a time bonus. We both felt it was a section that did add something extra to the test. It might have been a bit smarter to make the section more clearly marked as being a bonus section in the Puzzle Booklet. This was sadly only realised when we saw that people started solving the puzzles. I decided to still award the points to people who solved them as they didn't affect the top standings.

As for the bonus system, one of the intentions was to get people to also attack the hybrids as solving the hybrids gets you more points when you've already solved a few regular puzzles on that side. I went with percentage bonus to give people more bonus for solving higher scored puzzles. The percentage discrepancy was done because I felt otherwise the total bonus for the lefthand side would turn out too low. Now the total acchievable bonus for the lefthand side was 140 points and for the righthand side 225. I thought these totals were about right, found 105 a bit too little for the lefthand side and 300 a bit too much for the righthand side.

Some puzzles could have probably done with some easier answer keys, but I somewhat wanted to have answer keys that force you as much as possible to have to solve the whole puzzle. Sometimes this does make the answer key a bit more diffcult than it needs to be. For the Loop puzzles I just borrowed the answer structure used in FLIP. The Sea Battle I didn't go for the size 1 ships as they didn't weren't really the end of the solving path.

And I'll think about including some easier examples in the instruction booklet next time. They just ended up being some interesting smaller designs I came up with while testing the puzzle types and wanted people to see them.

Lastly

Some last puzzle related comments. The original ABC design didn't include the Sweden and Norway sums. So if you haven't tried it yet and want a bit more of a challenge for it, you can remove those two sums and tackle it that way. Also I wanted to point somethign out about the Outside Sudoku Design. If you look at the top clues you'll come across 4|8|32|3|16|48|2|9|18. If you look at them per three, you'll see that 4x8=32, 3x16=48 and 2x9=18. You can do this on all four sides of the puzzle.

I tried a bunch more hybrids, but eventually thought these were the ones which I could make the nicest puzzles with, while incorporating things from both puzzle types into one puzzle. One other combination that worked well is using both Myopia and Slitherlink clues in the same grid. It can help take out some uniqueness issues from Myopia and steer clear from some regular slitherlink patterns. But I thought the Pentopia was a nicer one in the end.

The unused puzzles that are supported on puzzlepicnic, will appear there in the upcoming weeks. I will also post some leftover designs there from the Hybrids there.you can check them out there in case you're interested in them.

Edited by Para 2011-03-15 2:02 AM
Hybrids - LMI March'11 Puzzle Test56 posts • Page 2 of 3 • 1 2 3
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