Tapa Train - 25th Dec to 14th Jan
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19 posts • Page 1 of 1 • 1
@ 2022-01-14 4:57 PM (#30209 - in reply to #30188) (#30209)Quote Reply Top

Realshaggy



Posts: 46
2020
Country : Germany

Realshaggy posted @ 2022-01-14 4:57 PM

Great contest with great puzzles! I can't say much about the scoring system since I didn't thought about it since it was pretty clear that I will probably never get any points.

Just two small remarks:
1.) Forcing feedback is always bad in my opinion. Especially in the exact moment after you finished the puzzle and want to see the results you get forced to press some emoji or whatever. You can bypass it, but for me it still feels annoying and the quality of feedback you get that way is questionable at best.
2.) The star system for quality feedback is also not good in my opinion, since a lot of popular sites use a 1-5 stars rating for difficulty (e.g. GMpuzzles and the LMG portal).

Oh and I'd love to see replay in real-time added.

Edited by Realshaggy 2022-01-14 5:03 PM
@ 2022-01-15 2:56 PM (#30210 - in reply to #30188) (#30210)Quote Reply Top

Nola



Posts: 18

Country : Germany

Nola posted @ 2022-01-15 2:56 PM

Thank you for a very nice series of wonderful Tapas. All could be solved purely by logic and I liked them a lot.
@ 2022-01-16 4:18 AM (#30211 - in reply to #30188) (#30211)Quote Reply Top

ropeko



Posts: 6

Country : Switzerland

ropeko posted @ 2022-01-16 4:18 AM

That was a great contest with beautiful Tapas! Thank you!
And the contest was very well doable just with the mobile phone, even the 20x20 puzzle.
In future it would be great, if there is more time to solve the puzzles, i.e. every 30h a new puzzle but the puzzle counts during the next 5 days, since not everybody has time to solve them on a daily basis.
As IHNN already mentioned, the scoring A for 1-100 rank is in my opinion suboptimal, because, luckily, of the high number of participants. It would motivate more if each participant get some points and not only the best solvers.
The replay button is a great feature to learn from the top solvers or just to see the different approaches.
I‘m looking forward for the next puzzle types :)!
@ 2022-01-16 2:53 PM (#30212 - in reply to #30208) (#30212)Quote Reply Top

Administrator



20001000100100100202020
Country : India

Administrator posted @ 2022-01-16 2:53 PM

IHNN - 2022-01-14 8:50 AM

I've voiced my thoughts in a couple of other places, and think that the scoring method is the biggest flaw. I'll go into a bit more shortly, but I want to highlight the things I really liked about this series. Having replays, even if I didn't watch many, is a phenomenal addition that I'd love to see expanded- perhaps the solver could annotate certain moves or the actual times of inputs could also be logged to see where thinking times were? The puzzles themselves were generally very nice across the board showing a lot of variety in the genre, though I think there could have been another easy puzzle and another hard puzzle- there were a lot of middle difficulty ones (and to keep 16, two of these could have been saved for elsewhere). The comments area probably didn't need emoji as it made most of the comments a single emoji- dividing this into "reacts" and "comments" may work better for actually capturing comments? The system being in place is a huge plus though, and most of these are minor opinion based things. As an aside, I would definitely appreciate if there were 2 puzzles open at once instead of just 1, giving a longer period- even for 1 puzzle it's not always easy to fit it in.

What I think is less of an opinion is the scoring system. I do not like going purely by placement but acknowledge it's the simplest way to aggregate results with different amounts of finishers. Expanding the scoring to more solvers, or perhaps having 51st and 52nd get 50 points, 53rd and 54th 49 and so on (or a similar adjustment) may help include more solvers who may have finished near the bottom on most solves. For a first run, top 100 makes sense as I expect the volume of people participating far exceeded what was expected- a great problem to be having!
Even more egregious though is inconsistent penalties. A flat rate just doesn't work with this format, as 2 minutes on smaller or shorter puzzles could easily be 100 placements, while on the larger ones a penalty cost maybe a dozen placements or less. This ends up putting a much greater weight on the smaller and easier puzzles, which is backwards from what's typical. I firmly believe that going forwards, penalties should be based on either a percentage of your own time being added to it (perhaps plus a small flat amount to discourage guessing further) or based on the performance of others- as an arbitrary example, 25% of the 25th fastest error free time on a puzzle.

Scoring is, of course, only relevant to the competitive aspects. The community aspects, the general format, the technical side of getting this to work and the puzzles themselves are all on point already I think. Looking forward to the future of these for sure.


Thank you for your detailed thoughts.

Some general responses here.
- The scoring system will not change as of now because we value the simplicity of it where anyone can simply look at it and understand what's going on immediately. This helps the casual solvers as well to have a good idea of where they place and why, and on balance we want to prioritize that. Having 51st and 52nd get 50 and so on seems interesting though. We will definitely think about that.
- We are definitely going to improve the penalty system. We will be implementing something similar to the Instant Grading in other LMI contests, but with increments in percentage of time increased per wrong submission. We will release more details when the next series is promoted here.
- We are looking at ways to categorize the feedback better in general.
@ 2022-01-16 11:12 PM (#30213 - in reply to #30209) (#30213)Quote Reply Top

Administrator



20001000100100100202020
Country : India

Administrator posted @ 2022-01-16 11:12 PM

Realshaggy - 2022-01-14 4:57 PM

Great contest with great puzzles! I can't say much about the scoring system since I didn't thought about it since it was pretty clear that I will probably never get any points.

Just two small remarks:
1.) Forcing feedback is always bad in my opinion. Especially in the exact moment after you finished the puzzle and want to see the results you get forced to press some emoji or whatever. You can bypass it, but for me it still feels annoying and the quality of feedback you get that way is questionable at best.
2.) The star system for quality feedback is also not good in my opinion, since a lot of popular sites use a 1-5 stars rating for difficulty (e.g. GMpuzzles and the LMG portal).

Oh and I'd love to see replay in real-time added.


Thank you for your kind words and feedback.

Regarding forcing feedback, as you said it can be bypassed pretty easily. We think from the perspective of authors that it is worth keeping it this way, even if the quality isn't the best, because people providing their puzzles freely generally like to see feedback and a possibility to engage with the solvers. We would rather appeal to solvers to use the feedback system productively with this in mind. This stance can change if more people feel the feedback system needs changes.

We will be changing the star system to make things clearer.

We are discussing/looking into the possibility and implementation of real-time replays.
@ 2022-01-18 12:13 AM (#30214 - in reply to #30211) (#30214)Quote Reply Top

swaroop2011




Posts: 635
50010020
Country : India

swaroop2011 posted @ 2022-01-18 12:13 AM

ropeko - 2022-01-16 6:18 PMThat was a great contest with beautiful Tapas! Thank you!And the contest was very well doable just with the mobile phone, even the 20x20 puzzle.In future it would be great, if there is more time to solve the puzzles, i.e. every 30h a new puzzle but the puzzle counts during the next 5 days, since not everybody has time to solve them on a daily basis.As IHNN already mentioned, the scoring A for 1-100 rank is in my opinion suboptimal, because, luckily, of the high number of participants. It would motivate more if each participant get some points and not only the best solvers.The replay button is a great feature to learn from the top solvers or just to see the different approaches.I‘m looking forward for the next puzzle types :)!

Thank you for your feedback. I am glad you enjoyed the ride.

-- We already have regular contests which last for 5 days or a week and we wanted a different flavor of the contest with this. Said that we will consider this suggestion and have an internal discussion if any changes are needed.

-- Each participant does get some points, that is what B is for. B is the puzzle points on solving the puzzle successfully and is not dependent on your ranking. Do note that your total points is equal to A+B.

Tapa Train - 25th Dec to 14th JanReply 19 posts • Page 1 of 1 • 1
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