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An LMI player | An LMI player posted @ 2013-06-24 9:03 PM
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Posts: 1800 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Country : India | prasanna16391 posted @ 2013-06-24 9:21 PM
Many points about this test have been discussed, I'll try to post my opinions on each of them. First, the points not being released. I generally don't do strategy well. Ok, I'm downright horrible. :P So from my perspective this was actually a good thing, because I didn't have to think about what puzzles to solve, and basically just went on what I feel like doing at that moment of the test. I definitely had a better test choice-wise than usual. However, I do believe the average solvers get affected badly by the lack of a points table. Its not good when you have just 3-4 favourites and need to pick the rest and don't know your picks pre-test. Next, the Classics. I agree this was a bit problematic, but I do believe that, more than the changing font, the problem that should be addressed is the clarity of givens. Changing the font and size is fine as a surprise/adaptability tester, but the basic clarity should be there for the solver to have no problems. I personally had no clarity issues though, so again, from my side at least, I have no problems with this part of the test. Also, I trust that the author team had a good reason for doing this and I'd like to hear that reason before commenting further. Then, the puzzly variations. Like I said before, over the course of the 8 GPs, I believe it evens out. However, this one as a stand-alone, was definitely dependent on non-Sudoku logic a bit more than usual. I think, it depends on the construction of variants too. The Logidoku for instance, I believe, can become an acceptable Sudoku variation for everyone if it has some givens and say just 5-6 operations. Don't get me wrong, the variants were all beautifully constructed, with some nice logic to them, and were indeed some of my personal favourites, but what I suggest is simply a way to make it more suited for a test targeted at a large Sudoku-loving audience. Lastly, the Snapshot Sudoku's rotation surprise. I like surprises. I even expressed my support for a surprise in a previous GP. Also, I have no frustration related to this Sudoku because I solved it at leisure and enjoyed it (on the 2nd try anyway). Still, I'm quite certain I'd have been frustrated if I'd done it during the competition. The main reason being, me, and maybe a lot of other people, would've used the "obvious" 9-6 snapshot to start the Sudoku. While in a competition mindset, it certainly would look obvious to most people. Once you place that at the start, you still need the placement of the 2 big snapshots among others to reach a contradiction. So you're basically starting with "oh cool, this is so easy" and then you reach a contradiction, where you either think back, or just leave it. If you think back, you've basically done some unintentional guesswork, and if you leave it, you've lost out on the points here, neither being a desirable result. I really believe that releasing in the rules "Rotation of pieces is allowed" wouldn't have reduced the fun value of this puzzle at all, and would've kept away all criticism, because using the 2 big snapshots is a pretty nice start. Also, it is important to consider the target audience here. Experimentation and puzzle-like variations are, I think, better to try with an audience that is mostly just people who have been at a WSC/WPC and had a lot of puzzling experience before. But these GPs have attracted many newcomers, and have been planned to attract solvers who are new to this level. Most of these are general thoughts, because within the duration alloted, I actually had fun on this test, which probably had a lot to do with avoiding the Snapshot and not having any clarity issues on the Classics, but still, I had fun. Thanks to the authors for that. | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 35 ![]() Country : The Netherlands | Bram28 posted @ 2013-06-24 9:51 PM I tried reloading the page, but that had no effect. For those keeping score: I lost 11 points for the Odd Lab. | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 225 ![]() ![]() ![]() Country : Thailand | tamz29 posted @ 2013-06-25 12:21 AM A great test with great puzzles. I think it is necessary to have points-distribution before hand, if not, at least have it at a front cover since I, and likely others, use it as a checklist to see which puzzle should be done next. | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 18 Country : Germany | Nola posted @ 2013-06-25 12:38 AM
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An LMI player | An LMI player posted @ 2013-06-25 12:38 AM
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Posts: 183 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Country : Turkey | yureklis posted @ 2013-06-25 1:53 AM When I was little, after completing a painful test, my mother used to tell me "Don't worry, if it is hard for you, then it is hard for everyone" :) First, I want to say that all these points that have been criticized were our personal choice, we wanted to do something different, but it was not appreciated. I'm sorry for that. I have been preparing puzzles for many years and I've often tried to make some innovative efforts in order to enrich the puzzle culture. These different efforts are generally criticized at first, but some of them are eventually accepted. Months before, when the date of our GP was set, I had already made my mind that it would be something different and I mentioned those to Deb. So the types were selected according to that. We could build the set with many familiar types that everyone would be satisfied, but we chose not to. About the fonts: Our starting point was the "check the puzzles" round in WSC 2011. Sudokus were built with many different fonts and the purpose was to challenge the visual perception. We used different fonts in classic Sudokus, based on this purpose. There are two points of view here: Solver's point of view and designer's point of view. The solver dislikes any feature that makes solving harder for them. The designer wants to do something different. That round in WSC 2011 was hard for me, I'm not a good solver and those fonts made everyting harder. I did not like that round as a solver. But when I put on my designer hat, I think it's a great idea. So in this test, we thought as a designer and personally I don't regret this choice. Overall, in this test, there were many features that were deliberately put in order to deform the usual structure. I suppose too many of them came together and that caused so many reactions. Maybe we should not put them altogether, we're sorry for that. Thanks for your comments, Serkan | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 103 ![]() Country : Serbia | Nikola posted @ 2013-06-25 3:02 AM I agree with most of the criticisms that have been said here but at the same time I want to support Serkan, proven innovator in the world of logic. I suppose he and his team member Salih wanted to bring something new again. Good job! I'm doing fine in logic sudoku variants. When I saw different fonts in first few grids, I thought the whole test is with such crazy fonts. I told myself, "get used to it!" Once I came out of the classics, the font has become normal ![]() And it seems we have 7 different GP winners. That will be a great final round in Beijing! Nikola Edited by Nikola 2013-06-25 3:13 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 164 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Country : Slovakia | greenhorn posted @ 2013-06-25 3:03 AM Hi Serkan, thank you for your explanation. I really love Turkish-style puzzles (WPC 2009 was the best WPC ever) and they are still the best from my view. I had no problem with the non-sudoku logic sudokus, but I was really dissapointed when I saw the unusual classics. I asked to myself: "What a hell, why Serkan made such a madness? Is it a shot into a dark, just to catch attention? I do not understand." This moment surprised me so much, that I was not able to continue solving. Before then I have solved some harded puzzles (maybe three and skipped "unsolvable" snapshot sudoku) and consider them very nice, however I have no motivation to continue competing. Another thing is the huge puzzle booklet. As I complain before (atfer Fugitive Warrant), I still think, that 21 pages are so much for a contest, that wants to invite new competitors. To save some papers and nerves I printed 2 pages per sheet, but some numbers were too small. Please, don´t think that I am looking for another complaints, but I have always dilemma how to deal with such a puzzle booklet. Thank you for a nice contest, great puzzles (also prefer the term "puzzles") and also valuable experiences :) Matus | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 72 ![]() ![]() ![]() Country : South Korea | Joo M.Y posted @ 2013-06-25 3:03 AM
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Posts: 11 Country : Canada | standupcanada posted @ 2013-06-25 5:47 AM
Personally loved it (except for the hard to read numbers on the early grids) though I can't argue with those who felt it was as much puzzle as sudoku. | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 1800 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Country : India | prasanna16391 posted @ 2013-06-25 7:56 AM yureklis - 2013-06-25 1:53 AM Overall, in this test, there were many features that were deliberately put in order to deform the usual structure. I suppose too many of them came together and that caused so many reactions. Maybe we should not put them altogether, we're sorry for that. Serkan I agree with this point mainly. Each twist on its own would've been only a "little twist" that some liked and some didn't while all together, there was some different thing each individual didn't like which stayed in mind even if they liked the rest. You gave the WSC example, and the point value there was very less compared to the rest of the WSC. I also agree with, and like the idea of enriching the Sudoku/Puzzle culture. Any new idea/innovative test will always be a risk once provided to the large audience, especially in a test-series trying to get new competitors in. So I respect the fact that you take these risks, and I can understand how bad it must feel when you take a risk and it's not well received. Once again, from my own perspective, thank you and the other authors for a fun test :) | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 4 Country : United States | starmusic posted @ 2013-06-25 8:29 AM
Interesting test. I liked the logic/puzzling emphasis that gave it a fresh feel. I'll echo other commenters that a points summary would have been nice and the change in fonts was distracting. I like the A or B puzzle type; this particular one was probably overrated for points. I didn't get to the Bands or Blocks (#20 and #21) during the time limit but enjoyed both of them post test, particularly the Blocks. | ||||||||||||||||||
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Country : India | Administrator posted @ 2013-06-25 8:34 AM GP7 is over. Password removed from Sudoku booklet. Here is the link to solution booklet. The score page will be public in a while. | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 31 ![]() Country : United States | joshuazucker posted @ 2013-06-25 9:16 AM I hadn't realized the way to avoid the contradiction that I found during the test on the snapshot! So it's good that finally I learn this idea. I was too fixed in my thinking. That was a very clever twist. I agree with the commenter who suggested that having one twist like that in a test is a nice spice, but having many such twists may just overload us, especially if we're expecting zero twists going in. I enjoyed the test, though I felt it was overall too hard/long. For me it felt unsatisfying to only solve 7 of 21 puzzles during the test, even if I did spend my time trying to solve the higher point value ones for the most part. I certainly look forward to spending some time on the remaining puzzles later! There is a lot of beauty to be found in these puzzles; none of them are boring, that's for sure! | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 7 Country : United States | BTroisi posted @ 2013-06-25 9:32 AM I enjoyed the puzzles tho' for many of the reasons mentioned above (as well as being sick), I got bogged down and did not submit any answers. I did not figure out the snapshot puzzle trick (would not have considered that within the description) and have wasted way too much time on it in interim! Glad to learn what I did wrong. Will have to look again. Tho' if rotation is allowed, then that opens up so many more possibilities that I probably wouldn't even have attempted it during the test. Did manage to solve most of the others by the end of the day. Good job. Thanks for the effort | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 1800 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Country : India | prasanna16391 posted @ 2013-06-25 9:39 AM BTroisi - 2013-06-25 9:32 AM Tho' if rotation is allowed, then that opens up so many more possibilities that I probably wouldn't even have attempted it during the test. Actually, if I understand it correctly, the 6-9 snapshot is the only one that can be rotated because the numbers still stay valid upon rotation. | ||||||||||||||||||
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Country : India | Administrator posted @ 2013-06-25 11:19 AM Results are now public. | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 1 Country : Uzbekistan | timnteam posted @ 2013-06-26 1:44 AM I do not like this snapshot twist at all. It was not mentioned that snapshots can be rotated. I spent much time to verify that something wrong in my logic and lost time. Those hidden tricks should not be allowed on that level of competion. On another note, it will be nice to have standartized fonts. Overall, the test was really nice. Thanks to authors and administrators. | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 34 ![]() Country : Turkey | bskbri posted @ 2013-06-26 3:27 AM Congratulations to Hideaki, Daisuke and Bastien for having the top three positions. The grand prix format let more solvers participate to online competitions. I am a loyal solver of them and this was my first one as an author. Thanks to Deb and LMI for the organization of the test, and also thanks to all participants of the test. I would like to express my extra thanks to the nine solvers who solved the snapshot sudoku. I was sure that I will receive some bad comments for that sudoku. Serkan came with the idea of rotating of a snapshot with a single digit at a corner. I applied the idea using two digits, assuming this will make it much obvious. Apparently, it didn’t work as I expected. I hope this twist will not cause any discourage for sudoku solvers. Salih | ||||||||||||||||||
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An LMI player | An LMI player posted @ 2013-06-26 1:37 PM
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Posts: 42 ![]() ![]() Country : United States | PuzzleScott posted @ 2013-06-26 2:03 PM
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An LMI player | An LMI player posted @ 2013-06-28 8:23 AM
I have two main complaints. One being that there simply wasn't enough time to dig into these puzzles. I don't mind that they were hard and I quite enjoyed completing them after the contest was over. (Except for Snapshot Sudoku that either has an error in the setup of the puzzle or I just can't figure out how to do it.) My other complaint is that the example puzzles in the instruction booklet were often smaller puzzles than the puzzles presented in the contest. Since a lot of these puzzles were novel to me, I didn't get enough practice with the smaller versions to feel prepared for the full-size puzzles in the contest. | ||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 1800 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Country : India | prasanna16391 posted @ 2013-06-28 12:25 PM An LMI player - 2013-06-28 8:23 AM (Except for Snapshot Sudoku that either has an error in the setup of the puzzle or I just can't figure out how to do it.) See the earlier posts for discussion on this. :) Also, Instruction booklets aren't given for the sake of practice but to understand the rules. For practice, if you are unsure of where to go for a particular type, just post on the topic before the test starts, and someone will give you some links. |