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Country : India | |
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Administrator
Country : India | Logic Masters India announces Fivefold Sudoku Test
Author : Serkan Yurekli
Dates : 16 th and 17 th July
Length : 120 minutes
IB and Submission Link : here
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Fred76
Posts: 337
Country : Switzerland | Fred76 posted @ 2011-07-12 11:49 PM Is there going to be bonus points for people who didn't participate in WSC's ?  |
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debmohanty
Country : India | Fred76 - 2011-07-12 11:49 PM
Is there going to be bonus points for people who didn't participate in WSC's ? I wish we could --- but we've no database of who participated in which WSCs |
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Fred76
Posts: 337
Country : Switzerland | Fred76 posted @ 2011-07-13 12:06 AM debmohanty - 2011-07-12 11:53 PM
Fred76 - 2011-07-12 11:49 PM
Is there going to be bonus points for people who didn't participate in WSC's ? I wish we could --- but we've no database of who participated in which WSCs
I was just laughing  . It looks very interesting.
Examples in the IB are a bit small...
Fred |
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Nikola
Posts: 103
Country : Serbia | Nikola posted @ 2011-07-13 12:37 PM As a participant of all five world championships, I can say that this will be evoking memories of five more or less beautiful destinations, nice fellowship and fun. The only thing which appeared in the booklet, but has not happened is that in Prague there wasn't classic sudoku, not even in team parts. Actually, there was one in the opening part, but it was called Picture.
I have a question about, for me, frustrating time bonus. Is it possible to know exactly how many points will be given for each puzzle in each time segment? For example, puzzle A1 is 19 points until 70 minutes, but how many points is if I complete task between 90-105 minutes? I would like to know the values for all grids and all periods. Thanks!
Nikola
Edited by Nikola 2011-07-13 12:38 PM
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yureklis
Posts: 183
Country : Turkey | Detailed point reductions can be seen below
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purifire
Posts: 460
Country : India | yureklis - 2011-07-13 2:37 PM
Detailed point reductions can be seen below
Interesting.... Looks like will have to change strategy of updating answers at the end... Finish a puzzle and update answer... : ) |
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debmohanty
Country : India | purifire - 2011-07-13 2:44 PM
Interesting.... Looks like will have to change strategy of updating answers at the end... Finish a puzzle and update answer... :)
Definitely yes after 70 minutes.
Unlike in Twist, points start reducing much earlier here. So I guess it is equally important to make a strategy for 'order of solving' |
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akash.doulani
Posts: 157
Country : India | the best strategy would be to solve the high pointers and submit in the first 70 minutes and then solve the low pointers.
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swaroop2011
Posts: 668
Country : India | Distance sudoku :
it is given that " clues outside the grid represent the distances between the given digits for the corresponding directions, in order."
But seeing the solution the number itself is also included for distance.
quadruple sudoku
solution is not given . and are the given numbers enough to complete the sudoku.
i am finding the B part of this test very tough to start. IS that the puzzle given itself is tough or i am missing some trick to do that puzzles.
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rakesh_rai
Posts: 774
Country : India | akash.doulani - 2011-07-13 7:54 PM
the best strategy would be to solve the high pointers and submit in the first 70 minutes and then solve the low pointers.
Agree. But there is high risk involved as well - if you are unable to solve, you get zero points and lose a lot of time too. |
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purifire
Posts: 460
Country : India | rakesh_rai - 2011-07-13 9:02 PM
akash.doulani - 2011-07-13 7:54 PM
the best strategy would be to solve the high pointers and submit in the first 70 minutes and then solve the low pointers.
Agree. But there is high risk involved as well - if you are unable to solve, you get zero points and lose a lot of time too.
No Pain No Gain |
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debmohanty
Country : India | purifire - 2011-07-13 9:06 PM
No Pain No Gain
No risk, No gain |
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rakesh_rai
Posts: 774
Country : India | swaroop2011 - 2011-07-13 8:24 PM
Distance sudoku :
it is given that " clues outside the grid represent the distances between the given digits for the corresponding directions, in order."
But seeing the solution the number itself is also included for distance.
If distance is given as N, it means there are N-1 numbers between the two given numbers.
quadruple sudoku
solution is not given . and are the given numbers enough to complete the sudoku.
solution is not given because the given numbers are not enough to complete the sudoku.
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debmohanty
Country : India | swaroop2011 - 2011-07-13 8:24 PM
quadruple sudoku
solution is not given . and are the given numbers enough to complete the sudoku.
As mentioned in IB, all examples are from the official IBs. And if I remember correctly, this is how it appeared in the corresponding IB as well.
Here is a complete Quadruple sudoku if you need practice (Note that digits may repeat in the 4 cells. This example doesn't have such a case )
Solution
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rakesh_rai
Posts: 774
Country : India | For a particular sudoku, I submit a correct answer at 65 minutes. Then I think something is wrong, so I change the answer and submit an incorrect answer at 75 minutes. But, in the end, I again realize my mistake and re-submit the correct answer at 119 minutes. The puzzle is worth 100 points.
How many do I get - 100 or 50? |
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purifire
Posts: 460
Country : India | rakesh_rai - 2011-07-13 9:18 PM
For a particular sudoku, I submit a correct answer at 65 minutes. Then I think something is wrong, so I change the answer and submit an incorrect answer at 75 minutes. But, in the end, I again realize my mistake and re-submit the correct answer at 119 minutes. The puzzle is worth 100 points.
How many do I get - 100 or 50?
Technically 50.... since the last time stamp associated with that puzzle will show a time of 119 minutes....
Rishi |
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Fred76
Posts: 337
Country : Switzerland | Fred76 posted @ 2011-07-13 10:25 PM akash.doulani - 2011-07-13 7:54 PM
the best strategy would be to solve the high pointers and submit in the first 70 minutes and then solve the low pointers.
An even better strategy would be to solve all grids in the first 70 minutes |
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debmohanty
Country : India | Fred76 - 2011-07-13 10:25 PM
An even better strategy would be to solve all grids in the first 70 minutes Simplest strategy, not sure why others couldn't come up with this idea |
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purifire
Posts: 460
Country : India | debmohanty - 2011-07-13 10:29 PM
Fred76 - 2011-07-13 10:25 PM
An even better strategy would be to solve all grids in the first 70 minutes Simplest strategy, not sure why others couldn't come up with this idea
Maybe some people are realistic and know their limitations :D |
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Para
Posts: 315
Country : The Netherlands | Para posted @ 2011-07-13 11:48 PM Is this test designed so the best solvers can finish them all within 70 minutes?
I thought originally the idea of the time expansion/points reduction concept was so more people could have the time to finish all puzzles, at least i thought that's why it was brought up at least. It just gives me a small idea of the average difficulty of all puzzles. As if it is, I might approach it with the mindset of being able to finish all puzzles(which I generally don't expect to acchieve in a sudoku contest), as i think I could finish everything with almost double the time to the fastest sudoku solvers. |
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purifire
Posts: 460
Country : India | Para - 2011-07-13 11:48 PM
Is this test designed so the best solvers can finish them all within 70 minutes?
I thought originally the idea of the time expansion/points reduction concept was so more people could have the time to finish all puzzles, at least i thought that's why it was brought up at least. It just gives me a small idea of the average difficulty of all puzzles. As if it is, I might approach it with the mindset of being able to finish all puzzles(which I generally don't expect to acchieve in a sudoku contest), as i think I could finish everything with almost double the time to the fastest sudoku solvers.
Looking at the list we have 22 puzzles in all ... that amounts to roughly less than 6 minutes per puzzle. I dont think more than 3 people will be able to complete all the puzzles....
Rishi |
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Para
Posts: 315
Country : The Netherlands | Para posted @ 2011-07-14 3:20 AM Yeah, that's what I was thinking too, but then I don't really get the idea behind the point reduction, I guess. Because why would it be better to solve a 90 point puzzle at the 60 minute mark than at the 90 minute mark, if the test isn't designed to be finished at the 70 minute mark for the fastest solvers. That's basically why I was wondering.
Edited by Para 2011-07-14 3:20 AM
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purifire
Posts: 460
Country : India | I can only speculate why this particular point structure has been chosen, but I like it. I have always believed Sudoku to be a "Single Persons Chess" where just solving is not important but strategising too. In this point structure, it would be foolish to tackle puzzles in order of appearance. A little bit of strategy would be needed as to how and in which order the puzzles would be attacked. |
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swaroop2011
Posts: 668
Country : India | can any body help out for how to start the "crossnumber sudoku and number 5 still alive"?
not getting a start. |
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Para
Posts: 315
Country : The Netherlands | Para posted @ 2011-07-14 10:17 PM For the crossnumber sudoku, you basically just have to place all numbers in the grid first. The most obvious point to start, is the left bottom corner. The left bottom vertical number, you can relatively easily prove that only 5876 is possible there, considering the numbers that can cross and the fact no digits can repeat within nonet 7. Once you have that, you should be able to fill ou the whole crossword.
Number 5 still alive I haven't figured out yet myself.
purifire - 2011-07-14 9:06 AM
I can only speculate why this particular point structure has been chosen, but I like it. I have always believed Sudoku to be a "Single Persons Chess" where just solving is not important but strategising too. In this point structure, it would be foolish to tackle puzzles in order of appearance. A little bit of strategy would be needed as to how and in which order the puzzles would be attacked.
I don't really agree but I guess that's not a discussion to have here.
I mainly was just inquiring with what solving time this test was intended for the fastest solvers (as that is normally what the test length is for ), to get an idea on the difficulty and thus how to approach this test. Because I was under the impression that the time extension/point reduction system was intended so that the people who finish just behind the fastest solvers can also finish all puzzles in competition for once, just for less points. Would still appreciate an answer from someone who knows for sure. |
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swaroop2011
Posts: 668
Country : India | thanks para.
actually i forget considering a sudoku rule. i considered it as solving like a crossword puzzle with few guesses but forgotten the basic rule. now i will give it another strike.
"just one cell sudoku"- how to go about it. i could just get few things in the top right corner 3 x 3. but not able to get that answer '2' . can anybody give the explanation for it.
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Para
Posts: 315
Country : The Netherlands | Para posted @ 2011-07-14 11:13 PM Just one cell sudoku:
R469C7 is a hidden triple {135}. Now R1C7 is a hidden single 2. Or you could do R28C7 is a naked pair {79} for C7, now R1C7 is a naked single 2. |
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motris
Posts: 199
Country : United States | motris posted @ 2011-07-14 11:49 PM The Number 5 Still Alive example from WSC2 was notoriously difficult and much much much more difficult than the competition puzzle was. This, in my experience, is often the case with Vlad Portugalov puzzles where the "example" is too hard to solve. After 15 minutes, I can explain how to get just 9 sure digits and 2 labeled pairs.
My hope is that someone can give you a link to another Number 5 Still Alive type puzzle from a previous mock test. I can only quickly find the related Number X is Alive puzzle from the May Sudoku test at the moment. |
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Fred76
Posts: 337
Country : Switzerland | Fred76 posted @ 2011-07-15 12:38 AM motris - 2011-07-14 11:49 PM
The Number 5 Still Alive example from WSC2 was notoriously difficult and much much much more difficult than the competition puzzle was. This, in my experience, is often the case with Vlad Portugalov puzzles where the "example" is too hard to solve. After 15 minutes, I can explain how to get just 9 sure digits and 2 labeled pairs.
My hope is that someone can give you a link to another Number 5 Still Alive type puzzle from a previous mock test. I can only quickly find the related Number X is Alive puzzle from the May Sudoku test at the moment.
There was one "number 5 still alive" on fed-sudoku. It was 1rst grid of "killer IV" of krtek's cup. you need to login to see the grid, the archives are not updated.
But the rule was a bit different, as "number in one cage should be different" applied there.
Fred |
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debmohanty
Country : India | Para - 2011-07-14 10:17 PM
I mainly was just inquiring with what solving time this test was intended for the fastest solvers (as that is normally what the test length is for), to get an idea on the difficulty and thus how to approach this test. Because I was under the impression that the time extension/point reduction system was intended so that the people who finish just behind the fastest solvers can also finish all puzzles in competition for once, just for less points. Would still appreciate an answer from someone who knows for sure.
Serkan has mentioned to me how much time he expects a top solver would take to complete all sudokus, so I obviously know the answer
But since he didn't answer the post yet, I'm not sure if he wants to make it public before the test ends.
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debmohanty
Country : India | rakesh_rai - 2011-07-13 9:18 PM
For a particular sudoku, I submit a correct answer at 65 minutes. Then I think something is wrong, so I change the answer and submit an incorrect answer at 75 minutes. But, in the end, I again realize my mistake and re-submit the correct answer at 119 minutes. The puzzle is worth 100 points.
How many do I get - 100 or 50?
As done in all other tests, your last submission (from online or paper mode ) will be considered as the only valid answer.
We don't check intermediate submissions. So you get 50.
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debmohanty
Country : India | About "Number 5 Still Alive"
Serkan and Cihan did a contest just before WSC2007 - It had Number 5 Still Alive (and also Crossnumber, Distance ) - Here is the link http://www.otuzoyun.com/puzzles/PseudokuChampionship.pdf
Any idea why it is called "Number 5 Still Alive". Is it based on some movie or song name? |
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debmohanty
Country : India | motris - 2011-07-14 11:49 PM
The Number 5 Still Alive example from WSC2 was notoriously difficult and much much much more difficult than the competition puzzle was. This, in my experience, is often the case with Vlad Portugalov puzzles where the "example" is too hard to solve. After 15 minutes, I can explain how to get just 9 sure digits and 2 labeled pairs.
Interestingly, a Google search on < "number 5 still alive" Sudoku > throws up a link which has the actual puzzle in the competition.
Some more examples at http://forsmarts.com/pdf/fpb_05.pdf
As noted in IB (like what Fred mentioned ), in the puzzle in this competition "digits may repeat in the cages". |
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rakesh_rai
Posts: 774
Country : India | 1] For online mode, will the rows/columns be automatically marked from the start, or will we need to click on "show cells to fill" 21 times?
2] For offline mode, how do we fill the answer key for "Just One Cell sudoku"? Just the number or the cell notation too? For online mode, I presume we just need to fill the key cell and click on submit. |
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utkaarsh
Posts: 89
Country : India | I think the name could be fall out of puzzles like XV and kropki where 5 cannot be derived from cell where clues are given... just a wild thought
Edited by utkaarsh 2011-07-15 1:33 PM
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Administrator
Country : India |
D1 - Musketry Sudoku will have 2 diagonals marked. These diagonals are 12-cells long. All other puzzles will have a combination of 2 rows / columns marked. See note below for E4 - Just One Cell Sudoku
Online Solvers
1 ) The order of Sudokus will be exactly same as in IB, except that D2 will appear before D1.
2 ) E4 - Just One Cell Sudoku - You must fill exactly one digit in the grid. If multiple digits are filled in the grid while submitting, you won't get any points. It is okay to have pencil marks around the grid (you don't need to clear the pencil marks before submitting )
Paper Solvers
1 ) The password protected puzzle booklet has 12 pages. There is no cover page. D1 and E5 appear on single pages. All other pages have 2 puzzles each
2 ) E4 - Just One Cell Sudoku - The answer format is "Co-ordinate of the cell, followed by the digit in the cell" e.g. EN3 (No special characters, you enter exactly 2 letters and one digit ). See image below for co-ordinate system.
3 ) Paper solvers who don't want the grids to be loaded in their browser can use this link - http://logicmastersindia.com/M201107S/?paper=1
As usual, players are free to choose the mode of solving (paper or online or mixed ). Your last submitted answer and its timestamp will be considered for scoring.
Point claims for typos will not be accepted, unless the typo is on a given digit.
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Ours brun
Posts: 148
Country : France | debmohanty - 2011-07-15 6:17 AM
Any idea why it is called "Number 5 Still Alive". Is it based on some movie or song name?
It is almost certainly referring to the movie "Short circuit". |
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Gabrieleud
Posts: 12
Country : ITALY | number 5 still alive is known to be very tricky. It is based on a principle that you can apply to "classic killer" sudoku. That is, you just have to add-up the unit digits, forgetting about the tens. The leftovers, together with the known areas, have to sum up ?5. For example, if your dotted areas show the digits: ?4, ?3, ?1 the sum is ?8. Any leftover cell or group of cells must end up with ?7, as ?8+?7 is ?5.
That is, because you want the sum to be 45, so it must end with a 5.
Like this, in the number 5 still alive, all of the areas have ?5, so the sum can either be ?5 or ?0, letting you figure out what the leftovers can be. |
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Administrator
Country : India | Puzzle booklet uploaded and flash submission enabled. |
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Administrator
Country : India | |
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janoslaw
Posts: 3
Country : Poland | Great contest!
Time limit was perfectly fixed. Also very good points distribution , maybe besides Just One Cell - it took me at most 5 seconds. ;)
The best puzzle constructions: Numeral, Double Diagonal, Termometer, Number 5, Killer.
Congratulations to You, Serkan. |
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motris
Posts: 199
Country : United States | motris posted @ 2011-07-16 7:36 PM Very beautiful puzzles Serkan; in many places your puzzles were even better than the respective ones from the WSC. Thanks for writing these. |
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Para
Posts: 315
Country : The Netherlands | Para posted @ 2011-07-16 9:16 PM Thanks for the puzzles Serkan.
I just checked the results again and I seem to have lost points (only realised as I switch places with xevs). I think my Numeral Sudoku Entry went from 65% to 50%. I was pretty sure I submitted my last 2 puzzles in the 65% and 50% zone, not both in the 50% zone. This was how it was listed before. Why did it change? |
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Gabrieleud
Posts: 12
Country : ITALY | Checklist of possible mistakes in this competition:
1) Completing a puzzle, but sending only half solution [DONE]
2) Printing the Outside Sudoku on a recycled paper, so that some numbers are covered with other prints [DONE]
3) Printing the Thermometer Sudoku in low-quality [DONE]
4) Completing the row and column for the solution, then continue finishing the sudoku, and seeing the time runnig over just when you're pasting on the submission page [DONE]
5) Completing the Just One Cell in just three seconds, and spending one minute to check whether it is REALLY correct [DONE]
6) Leaving the Double Diagonal for last [DONE]
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Fred76
Posts: 337
Country : Switzerland | Fred76 posted @ 2011-07-16 10:07 PM Gabrieleud - 2011-07-16 9:20 PM
Checklist of possible mistakes in this competition:
1) Completing a puzzle, but sending only half solution [DONE]
2) Printing the Outside Sudoku on a recycled paper, so that some numbers are covered with other prints [DONE]
3) Printing the Thermometer Sudoku in low-quality [DONE]
4) Completing the row and column for the solution, then continue finishing the sudoku, and seeing the time runnig over just when you're pasting on the submission page [DONE]
5) Completing the Just One Cell in just three seconds, and spending one minute to check whether it is REALLY correct [DONE]
6) Leaving the Double Diagonal for last [DONE]
I just forgot to submit one answer (a grid solved between 70th and 90th minutes ) 
I don't mention other misadventure that happened to me during the test (1rst one was a power cut - that lasted 50 minutes - just at the beginning of the test, when my printer hadn't finished to print. Fortunately, I didn't choose to play all test online, and my printer had enough time to print enough grids... )
Fred |
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Fred76
Posts: 337
Country : Switzerland | Fred76 posted @ 2011-07-16 10:10 PM But, I agree with others: GREAT SET OF PUZZLES !
 Serkan ! |
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deu
Posts: 69
Country : Japan | deu posted @ 2011-07-17 12:05 AM Really good test! Thanks, Serkan.
The only thing I regret is that I completely lost concentration in the last 30 minutes and broke some puzzles. |
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neerajmehrotra
Posts: 328
Country : India | Grt test.......
One submission blunder............typed Y instead of X in B1 Classic in last digit in the column key. Hope it can be considered as an typo.
[Deb edited the digits] |
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debmohanty
Country : India | neerajmehrotra - 2011-07-17 12:27 AM
Grt test.......
One submission blunder............typed Y instead of X in B1 Classic in last digit in the column key. Hope it can be considered as an typo.
Neeraj and others,
1. No points for typo unless it is on a clue
2. Please don't post exact digit here - you are giving away a clue to others. |
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debmohanty
Country : India | Para - 2011-07-16 9:16 PM
I just checked the results again and I seem to have lost points (only realised as I switch places with xevs). I think my Numeral Sudoku Entry went from 65% to 50%. I was pretty sure I submitted my last 2 puzzles in the 65% and 50% zone, not both in the 50% zone. This was how it was listed before. Why did it change?
There was a mistake in the score page - it was giving 65% to puzzles submitted upto 110 minutes (it should have been 105 minutes ). It was fixed much later in the day, definitely much later than when you completed the test.
That is the reason of the change, sorry about the confusion! |
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purifire
Posts: 460
Country : India | Beautiful Puzzles Serkan..... Loved the Double Diagonal and Thermometers the best.... When I saw the IB I thought 120 minutes would be less for 22 puzzles but it turned out perfectly timed... Thanks for the great set...
Rishi |
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neerajmehrotra
Posts: 328
Country : India | debmohanty - 2011-07-17 4:34 AM
neerajmehrotra - 2011-07-17 12:27 AM
Grt test.......
One submission blunder............typed Y instead of X in B1 Classic in last digit in the column key. Hope it can be considered as an typo.
Neeraj and others,
1. No points for typo unless it is on a clue
2. Please don't post exact digit here - you are giving away a clue to others.
sorry for this blunder.... |
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vopani
Posts: 739
Country : India | vopani posted @ 2011-07-17 10:21 AM Beautiful test Serkan. I think every sudoku had its own charm in solving and thats the mark of a good author.
I personally liked Group Sum and Quadruple the best of the set. |
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Ziti
Posts: 42
Country : United States | Ziti posted @ 2011-07-17 2:23 PM Thank you Serkan -- this was a very nice set with as much quality as quantity. I enjoyed the puzzles during the test and will continue to enjoy the many I did not finish during these two hours. Thank you again. |
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forcolin
Posts: 172
Country : ITALY | I have completed this very good test (with two stupid mistakes, when will I give up this) and yesterday morning have seen the first time the result sheet. But now when I try to look at the result I just see the page with the nicks of those who have started or completed the tests without score. Is this intentional or is it just aproblem of communication I have? |
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debmohanty
Country : India | forcolin, you should be able to see others scores as well, please check again. The score page should show others scores.
Please send me a screenshot of score page, if the problem persists.
What about others? Is anyone else facing the same problem or is it forcolin only? |
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debmohanty
Country : India | I realized why you are not able to see the score page.
Goto the test page. Click on "Start Fivefold", after that go to the the score page. |
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B. Thananon
Posts: 12
Country : Thailand | <Edited>
I've read all the rules in the first page.
Edited by B. Thananon 2011-07-17 4:51 PM
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Administrator
Country : India | B. Thananon - 2011-07-17 4:40 PM
I've read all the rules in the first page. You are not alone. There are 2/3 players who did similar mistake. |
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akash.doulani
Posts: 157
Country : India | it was a great set of puzzles. i had actually thought of doing well before the test . but for the first 10 miutes app. i was still collecting the printouts (courtesy - my printer). and with 70 minutes gone i had done only 4 low pointers and also got the killer wrong . i knew i had goofed up big time. spending the last 50 minutes was terrible with my group sum going wrong. it was a test where i did more wrong than right. but it was a wonderful test |
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cnarrikkattu
Posts: 25
Country : United States | Really great puzzles. It would have been even better had I not dropped almost 200 points because I messed up the cleanup phase of three puzzles *sigh*. |
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tamz29
Posts: 225
Country : Thailand | tamz29 posted @ 2011-07-17 10:51 PM Congratulations on another test well done, Serkan.
Wow. You make good sudokus!
Looking forward to see a lot more exciting tests from you :) |
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Ours brun
Posts: 148
Country : France | This test was a failure.
Not the test itself of course, just my own performance. As Jan said, the global difficulty was very well estimated. It is just too bad I did a big bunch of big mistakes, in particular during the second hour (the detailed results are very telling). Really too bad because I wasn't in a bad shape.
Puzzles themselves were wonderful. Thanks Serkan and congratulations to the toppers for their results. |
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detuned
Posts: 152
Country : United Kingdom | detuned posted @ 2011-07-18 12:12 AM I surprised myself by solving relatively cleanly (albeit a fair bit more slowly) using the online interface (alas, no access to a printer here)... it's a bit of a shame I restarted the thermometers 4 times, but generally the puzzles were of at least as high a standard as their WSC inspirations, and there was a lot to enjoy about this test. I'm not so keen about arbitrarily docking points as time goes on, but hey, these tests are the perfect opportunity to play with quirky new scoring systems.
Great stuff! |
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gramar
Posts: 9
Country : United Kingdom | gramar posted @ 2011-07-18 12:31 AM I loved this set of puzzles. I'm not anywhere near competition standard with my sudoku solving but really enjoy having a go, and it was great to find a competition where I could do just that! One or two of the puzzles were beyond me, some were challenging (have since completed them at my leisure) and some of them were just right for the likes of me, so thanks for a very inclusive test! I made a couple of errors of judgement as regards which ones I could solve quickly, but was especially pleased at getting the full 82 points for the musketry sudoku - one good decision made!
Once again, thanks for a great set of puzzles. |
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RJH0723
Posts: 13
Country : United States | RJH0723 posted @ 2011-07-18 8:00 AM Couldn't compete, but printed the puzzles and they make up one great set! Favorites: Quadruple, Number 5 Still Alive, Distance, Thermometer
And just wondering, where should you start in the double diagonal and the killer, could only get a few digits without trial and error :( |
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Administrator
Country : India | Fivefold is over. Congratulations to purifire, janoslaw, deu for topping the list.
Great set of puzzles, awesome performances from many players, and huge turnout for LMI. Thank you everyone for participating.
Too early morning for Serkan to comment (who has been mysteriously not putting any comments before / during test ), but hope to hear from him soon. |
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Administrator
Country : India | Now that the test is over, feel free to discuss how the points system affected your strategy. There were not many complaints (unlike in Twist), but we would love to hear how it turned out for you. |
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purifire
Posts: 460
Country : India | RJH0723 - 2011-07-18 8:00 AM
Couldn't compete, but printed the puzzles and they make up one great set! Favorites: Quadruple, Number 5 Still Alive, Distance, Thermometer
And just wondering, where should you start in the double diagonal and the killer, could only get a few digits without trial and error :(
For the Double Diagonal, you can fill up all the 9s and then all the 1s. Post this, the Diagonal from R9C2 to R2C9 can have only 8 unique digits and the only number missing is the digit 9. Which allows 2 to be placed at R4C7 and subsequently all the 2s are also placed.. post this it becomes easy to fill the grid up.
Rishi |
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akash.doulani
Posts: 157
Country : India | congrats to rishi for beating the best in the world |
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neerajmehrotra
Posts: 328
Country : India | It was one of the greatest tests at LMI, almost all the good known variants of sudoku were there. Congrats to Rishi (purifire) for his awesome performance. And ofcourse congratulations to all those who participated.
Edited by neerajmehrotra 2011-07-18 10:39 AM
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Administrator
Country : India | Found out that some player first solved and submitted online. Then towards the end of the test they again submitted using paper mode - both answers being correct.
They thus lost lot of points. We'll fix the score page soon.
But there is no player in the top 40 who will gain points. |
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Tejal Phatak
Posts: 81
Country : India | Beautiful set of Sudoku's, thoroughly enjoyed solving the test! :) |
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Administrator
Country : India | Administrator - 2011-07-18 11:22 AM
Found out that some player first solved and submitted online. Then towards the end of the test they again submitted using paper mode - both answers being correct.
They thus lost lot of points. We'll fix the score page soon.
But there is no player in the top 40 who will gain points.
Done - The biggest gainer is luboign who moved from 79 to 56.
Players are requested again not to do this. It is waste of time and error-prone. |
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Errabee
Posts: 5
Country : The Netherlands | Errabee posted @ 2011-07-18 1:25 PM Great set of puzzles. For me a bit disappointing, as I got caught in a misinterpretation of the Quad Sum rules. The phrase that "numbers may repeat around the arrow", I interpreted as "there is no number larger than the number the arrow is pointing at", which meant that for instance I could not exclude the 5 in R8C6. That made the puzzle significantly more difficult, and in the end unsolvable. Cost me a lot of points :( |
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rakesh_rai
Posts: 774
Country : India | Administrator - 2011-07-18 8:33 AM
Great set of puzzles, awesome performances from many players, and huge turnout for LMI. Thank you everyone for participating.
Congratulations Serkan for a superb test, Rishi for finishing at #1 and Rohan for finishing in Top 11 !!! |
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debmohanty
Country : India | |
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Ours brun
Posts: 148
Country : France | I got completely stuck on the Odd-Even-Big-Small sudoku during the test - put it away after having wasted about 7-8 minutes, and tried it again this morning. Well, it was hard but I nearly reached the end. But there, I found several solutions. No mistake as it seemed, so I searched again and again, wondering what I could possibly have missed. Nothing.
Then I finally read the rules and noticed that they clearly said : "An indicator symbol on the outside says that the first two numbers along that row or column are either odd (1,3,5,7), even [...]
*kick myself*
Anyway thanks again Serkan, I had fun even on sudoku types I tend to dislike. |
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yureklis
Posts: 183
Country : Turkey | Hi,
First of all thanks to all participants for spending two hours :)
Congratulations to Rishi Puri, Jan Mrozowski and Hideaki Jo. All three of them took their strategies wisely and all three gained more than 700 points in the first 70 minutes. Hideaki Jo started the test with an amazing performance as he mentioned, but couldn't keep it up. Jan Mrozowski also started well, but near the end he had 3 or 4 broken puzzles. What I admired about him was that he realised and corrected 2 or 3 broken puzzles in the last few minutes. This really shows his confidence. And the winner Rishi Puri, first of all I am so happy to see a new champion. He too started very well and progressed consistently until the end. With the points 779-227-125-40 according to the four stages, he was the only one in the top three to achieve "most points in first stage, least points in last stage" theme.
I am happy that the scoring system worked out well. In my opinion, this kind of scoring shouldn't contain time bonus. Because the author is supposed to design the puzzles in a way that forces the competitor to take a strategy, and time bonus in a twist scoring like this is not so reasonable. The author must be sure of the difficulty of the set and must be sure that there is no need for time bonus. Honestly I was not so sure about the difficulty and I gave time bonus, because in the case that a few solvers completed the test, there could be an unfair scoring due to the twist structure. For example I was so sure about the TVC series, but there happened to be an unfair scoring due to lack of time bonus, so I didn't want to take a risk.
The puzzle with the highest rating was Number 5 Still Alive - 9.5
The puzzle with the lowest rating was Just One Cell - 5.71
221 people started the test and 199 of them submitted at least one answer.
Thanks again to all participants, WSC organizers, LMI, Deb Mohanty, Gulce Ozkutuk Yurekli and Salih Alan.
Best
Serkan |
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euklid
Posts: 28
Country : Austria | euklid posted @ 2011-07-18 6:36 PM I also enjoyed the test a lot. Great puzzles!
I don't really think the point system has more advantages than disadvantages, but honestly I don't really care either way. One disadvantage is that there are several deadlines to watchduring the test:
I began with those puzzles I thought I was best at. Of course the high-pointers first. Then before the 70-minute deadline I solved several low-pointers. After the 70-minute deadline I began with high-pointers again. I should have done the same (switching high-pointers with low-pointers) at the 90-minute, 105-minute and 120-minute deadline, but for me that would have taken too much concentration away from the puzzles. Thus I ignored all deadlines except the 70-minute and 120-minute deadline...
Stefan
[edit:] There were a lot of forum comments from competitors while the event was still running. Comments on puzzles - how innocently they might be intended - should not be posted. Before taking the test I browse the forum thread of course. I am not happy to read which solvers had problems with which puzzles or which puzzles they were happy to have tackled. It is not easy to let oneself not be influenced in ones own choice of puzzles.
Edited by euklid 2011-07-18 6:47 PM
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Ours brun
Posts: 148
Country : France | I completely agree with this. I understand it may be difficult to restrain oneself from talking about the puzzles we just solved, but it really is necessary to avoid influencing other players. To deal with this, I usually post a first message right after having completed the test, in which I usually complain about my poor performance due to many mistakes, blah blah blah, and then a second one once the test is over, in which I talk about puzzles themselves.
Please keep it in mind for the future, it will be highly appreciated... at least by Stefan and I. |
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motris
Posts: 199
Country : United States | motris posted @ 2011-07-18 8:28 PM It looks like a few of us (Kota, David McNeill, certainly myself) took the general approach to just solve this test, not to strategize which puzzles to solve, and enjoy the WSC experiences in order. This was much more fun for me (and I think I prefer playing the sudoku contests for fun and not high stress, which it would have been if I remembered where the 3 intermediate time cutoffs were so I'd jump to small puzzles to finish those with one minute before the change or something).
I find assigning accurate points on puzzles for all competitors to be very difficult, so my favorite round design in all circumstances is a test that can be finished in 80-90% of the time so the order of finish determines the top solvers, not which order they solved things in or which puzzles they chose to solve if the round is not finishable. This test was almost perfectly timed, but the top solvers just made some typos or had errors so no one was clean. With this being the case, I'm not sure I see the need for complicated scoring which can make the competition more stressful and take away from the beauty of the puzzles which were, as I said earlier with no specific names as euklid/oursbrun would want, outstanding.
On their point, one thing the UK site did during a past test was add a comment box to their answer sheet. So all the comments about "I think I made an error on X because of Y" can be sent as private messages and not put in the forum. This won't eliminate all the messages here that could contain spoilers, but it is worth considering.
Edited by motris 2011-07-18 8:41 PM
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Fred76
Posts: 337
Country : Switzerland | Fred76 posted @ 2011-07-18 8:30 PM Awesome performance from top players ! congrats !
As said euklid, the disadvantage of this system is to have a lot of "deadlines". When I solve on paper, I don't like to do goings and comings between the place I solve and the computer to submit codes. One must be careful about time much more than on other tests, and can't be as concentrated as you should on grids.
Another little criticism about this system:
I find that it's a great quality to be able to stay concentrated after having solved grids for 1h30 or 1h45. Players that can keep a fast rythm or even increase rythm of solving in the end of test are not favored by this system.
About the test itself: grids were really good. I particularly appreciate distance, quadruple (the grid I solved during test without having the idea to submit it ! ), number 5 still alive, Quad max, Group sum, thermometer and double diagonal.
I had trouble with 2 power cut during the test, so I wasn't very concentrated about grids and deadlines... I had to finish to print grids after 50 minutes (1rst time it just printed the 12 first grids ). I concentrated to try to submit between the power cuts and hoped it'll not last more than 2 hours.
purifire - 2011-07-18 9:12 AM
For the Double Diagonal, you can fill up all the 9s and then all the 1s. Post this, the Diagonal from R9C2 to R2C9 can have only 8 unique digits and the only number missing is the digit 9.
I easily saw that... when I solved the grid after the test  completely missed that during the test, I spent about 10 minutes on that grid without being able to go further to this point. When I redo this after the test, I was angry not having seen that during the test !
Fred |
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Fred76
Posts: 337
Country : Switzerland | Fred76 posted @ 2011-07-18 8:43 PM Ours brun - 2011-07-18 3:53 PM
I got completely stuck on the Odd-Even-Big-Small sudoku
Then I finally read the rules and noticed that they clearly said : "An indicator symbol on the outside says that the first two numbers along that row or column are either odd (1,3,5,7), even [...]
Sometimes, it's useful to solve grids of the IB  . I say that because it happened exactly the same thing to me on solving the IB grid |
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debmohanty
Country : India | motris - 2011-07-18 8:28 PM
On their point, one thing the UK site did during a past test was add a comment box to their answer sheet. So all the comments about "I think I made an error on X because of Y" can be sent as private messages and not put in the forum. This won't eliminate all the messages here that could contain spoilers, but it is worth considering.
Players who made mistakes during Nikoli Selection would have noticed a "Claim Points" button next to each of their wrong puzzle in the score page. Authors / organizers periodically checked all claims as well as all other wrong submissions. I was not exactly keen on adding a text box, primarily because I didn't think a player should explain what mistake he did. It should be left to authors/organizers to deduce if the submitted answer deserves 100% or 80% or 0% independent of the participant's version.
I didn't follow the same model in this test because I just copied Twist's score page this time. So next test onwards, players will see "Claim points" button in the score page. If a textbox is really needed there, that can be done as well.
However, in this test, and in most of the tests, it is not "claiming points" which reveals more about this test. To be precise, apart from Neeraj's claim in this test, there were no other claims. It is mainly comments like "I took x seconds for puzzle y" or I couldn't solve puzzle x in y hours" should be avoided.
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David McNeill
Posts: 63
Country : United Kingdom | As Thomas has observed, I simply tried to solve the Sudokus in order. This was much less stressful than continually shuffling bits of paper. In my case, it took 10 minutes for the first puzzle to be printed (as the pdf file was very slow to open and printing was also incredibly slow). As a result, the unusual scoring system really penalised me. My strategy was also flawed by the fact that I got really stuck on the Distance Sudoku. I would prefer a conventional scoring system.
Some beautiful puzzles, including those which I solved afterwards. Particularly liked Number 5 Still Alive, Group Sum and Odd-Even-Big-Small. |
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debmohanty
Country : India | David McNeill - 2011-07-18 10:00 PM
(as the pdf file was very slow to open and printing was also incredibly slow).
Really surprised to hear that, because the pdf file size was really small (~100 KB ), and all grids were vector based images (except some part of odd-even-big-small ).
Did anybody else face the problem?
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utkaarsh
Posts: 89
Country : India | I would second david's point on the fact that puzzles should be sequenced as per points,
but i loved the time based scoring system, knowing your strengths and selecting the right strategy should be rewarded |
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atc121212
Posts: 1
| can any body help out for how to start the "crossnumber sudoku and number 5 still alive"?
Edit : Removed a link not related to sudoku / puzzles
Edited by debmohanty 2011-12-08 9:15 AM
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Valezius
Posts: 66
Country : Hungary | atc121212 - 2011-12-08 9:10 AM
can any body help out for how to start the "crossnumber sudoku and number 5 still alive"?
Edit : Removed a link not related to sudoku / puzzles
Crossnumber: There are just 4 3-long and 4-long numbers. Not too hard to find their places. Four instance in the 1st row the 3-long number can be just one from the list.
After the 3-long number in the last row also unique. You can put the other two 3-long number easily.
Now you can find the places of 4-long numbers.
Number 5: A bit harder (it is 78 points )
Four instance in the left-middle box there are 3 cages. The sum 5+5+15 or 5+15+15 But the second isnt good, because the total of remained cells would be 10, and a 6 is given. So it is 1+3+6, but R3C1=3
Hence the correct sum 5+5+15 so this 3 cages contain (2+3 ) (1+4 ) (7+8 ) and the 2 remained cells (5,9 )
You can consider the other side as well, the 2 remained cells (1,5 )
You could write down numbers, but these are important informations.
If you look at the 5th column you will see 4 cages. The total of this cages 40 or 35 or 30 etc. So 40. And R5C5=5. The number pairs in this column (14 ) (23 ) (69 ) (78 ) and just one cell can be 9. (R3C5 ) Now you can find the 9 and 6 in the right-middle box. (5,9 ) in the left-middle box and (1,5 ) in the right-middle box. Moreover all 9s unique.
I hope this will be enough.
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Fivefold Sudoku Test — LMI July Sudoku Test — 16/17th July
