Neighbours - 12th-14th Sep - Sudoku Mahabharat & ISC Qualifier
@ 2015-09-07 9:41 PM (#19255) (#19255) Top

Administrator



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Administrator posted @ 2015-09-07 9:41 PM





Link for rules and other details about Sudoku Mahabharat : http://logicmastersindia.com/SM/2015-16.asp
Instructions for Neighbours - http://logicmastersindia.com/SM/201509/

@ 2015-09-08 9:49 AM (#19261 - in reply to #19255) (#19261) Top

Administrator



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Administrator posted @ 2015-09-08 9:49 AM

Neighbours

Instruction Booklet for Neighbours published.

Link : http://logicmastersindia.com/SM/201509/


@ 2015-09-08 11:11 AM (#19263 - in reply to #19255) (#19263) Top

prasanna16391



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prasanna16391 posted @ 2015-09-08 11:11 AM

Practice links -
Touchy and Renban are repeated from last year's Sudoku Mahabharat Neighbours round - http://logicmastersindia.com/lmitests/?test=SM201502
Thermo is basically 'Inequality in series', so that is technically a repeat too. Either way, Thermo Sudoku is very common and a search of any blogs on the LMI links page should get some results - http://logicmastersindia.com/home/?g=links . Renban and Quadruple should also be somewhat common on blogs and sites.
Quadruple is a repeat from last year, but from the Standard variations round. http://logicmastersindia.com/lmitests/?test=SM201409

Repeated Neighbours has appeared in Sudoku Grand Prix Indian round in 2013 and 2014. There is a 'pairs' logic to this variant which really helps solve it. It a mix of Neighbours & Converse so could have been on either round. One hint is to compare it to Untouch Sudoku.
http://logicmastersindia.com/lmitests/?test=M201302S
http://gp.worldpuzzle.org/content/wpf-sudoku-gp7

If you are feeling really adventurous, then try this one from my blog, but be warned, it took even some of the world's best solvers upwards of 20 minutes. The competition one will definitely be much easier :)
https://prasannaseshadri.wordpress.com/2013/07/23/puzzle-no-415-repe...
@ 2015-09-08 12:39 PM (#19270 - in reply to #19255) (#19270) Top

mihiryadav



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mihiryadav posted @ 2015-09-08 12:39 PM

In repeated neighbours....can there be two pairs of repeating neighbours?...and can a neighbour repeat thrice?
@ 2015-09-08 1:11 PM (#19271 - in reply to #19270) (#19271) Top

Administrator



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Administrator posted @ 2015-09-08 1:11 PM

mihiryadav - 2015-09-08 12:39 PM

In repeated neighbours....can there be two pairs of repeating neighbours?...and can a neighbour repeat thrice?

Neighbours in this puzzle refer to Orthogonal (i.e. sharing an edge) neighbours. So it can't repeat thrice. But there can be two pairs of repeating neighbours.
@ 2015-09-11 1:07 PM (#19295 - in reply to #19255) (#19295) Top

Administrator



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Administrator posted @ 2015-09-11 1:07 PM

Points Table

Instruction Booklet is re-uploaded with points table. Here it is for your quick reference.



@ 2015-09-11 1:37 PM (#19296 - in reply to #19255) (#19296) Top

mihiryadav



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mihiryadav posted @ 2015-09-11 1:37 PM

How to proceed ahead?
@ 2015-09-11 2:32 PM (#19297 - in reply to #19296) (#19297) Top

prasanna16391



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prasanna16391 posted @ 2015-09-11 2:32 PM

mihiryadav - 2015-09-11 1:37 PM

How to proceed ahead?


Not sure what this is in reference to. Can you specify? You mean Repeated Neighbours?
@ 2015-09-11 4:04 PM (#19298 - in reply to #19255) (#19298) Top

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Administrator posted @ 2015-09-11 4:04 PM

Quadruple Sudoku

Minor change in rules of "Quadruple Sudoku"

Apply standard Sudoku rules.
Additionally, the digits given at the corner must appear in the 4 adjoining cells. If any digit is given twice, it must appear twice.


See example below:




Instructions booklet is updated with this rule.

@ 2015-09-11 5:37 PM (#19299 - in reply to #19255) (#19299) Top

lrani



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lrani posted @ 2015-09-11 5:37 PM

There is no doubt on the updated rule. I was thinking that in a Quadruple sudoku always 4 numbers will be given as clues to be filled in the 4 adjoining cells. In the example which is updated above less than 4 nos are given as clues to be filled in the adjoining cells. Pls confirm.
@ 2015-09-11 5:37 PM (#19300 - in reply to #19255) (#19300) Top

devarajand



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devarajand posted @ 2015-09-11 5:37 PM

Pl detail the rules of Repeated Neighbours and updated rule of Quadruple.
@ 2015-09-11 5:39 PM (#19301 - in reply to #19299) (#19301) Top

debmohanty




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debmohanty posted @ 2015-09-11 5:39 PM

lrani - 2015-09-11 5:37 PM

There is no doubt on the updated rule. I was thinking that in a Quadruple sudoku always 4 numbers will be given as clues to be filled in the 4 adjoining cells. In the example which is updated above less than 4 nos are given as clues to be filled in the adjoining cells. Pls confirm.

Yes, the new example having less than 4 numbers is intentionally given. The Sudoku(s) in the contest will have clues like this.
@ 2015-09-11 5:45 PM (#19302 - in reply to #19300) (#19302) Top

debmohanty




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debmohanty posted @ 2015-09-11 5:45 PM

devarajand - 2015-09-11 5:37 PM

Pl detail the rules of Repeated Neighbours and updated rule of Quadruple.


Repeated Neighbours :
Note that here Neighbours means "orthogonal neighbours" i.e. cells sharing an edge. So, one cell can have maximum 4 orthogonal neighbours.
Among those 4 neighbouring cells, if any two cells have same digit, then the original cell will be shaded.
Converse rule applies i.e. a) all possible shaded cells are marked. b) a white cell must have different digits in the 4 neighbouring cells.


Quadruple :
Note sure how to elaborate this. The rule is pretty clear and the new example shows all possible cases.
If any particular sentence is not clear in the rule, please highlight that and we will re-word, if possible.

@ 2015-09-11 5:48 PM (#19303 - in reply to #19255) (#19303) Top

debmohanty




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debmohanty posted @ 2015-09-11 5:48 PM

If any rule is not clear, please refer to the solution... Also please solve the examples in the IB to be absolutely clear about the rules before the contest starts.

The last thing you want to do after you start the timer is to understand the rules :)
@ 2015-09-11 6:54 PM (#19305 - in reply to #19302) (#19305) Top

Himanshi



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Himanshi posted @ 2015-09-11 6:54 PM

I am really confused with respect to Repeated Neighbours. Can you please elaborate with the help of a diagram as to what does sharing an edge means. ( The way Anti Knight Sudoku is explained)
In 6x6 sudoku, the same digits are repeated diagonally in the shaded cells. But in 9x9 sudoku, I find digits repeating diagonally with respect to some white cells, for eg. 9 is repeating in R2C3 & R3C4, 7 is repeating in R6C3 & R7C2 and R3C6 & R4C5 etc and not for shaded cells




Edited by Himanshi 2015-09-11 7:09 PM
@ 2015-09-11 7:13 PM (#19307 - in reply to #19305) (#19307) Top

prasanna16391



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prasanna16391 posted @ 2015-09-11 7:13 PM

Himanshi - 2015-09-11 6:54 PM

I am really confused with respect to Repeated Neighbours. Can you please elaborate with the help of a diagram as to what does sharing an edge means. ( The way Anti Knight Sudoku is explained)
In 6x6 sudoku, the same digits are repeated diagonally in the shaded cells. But in 9x9 sudoku, I find digits repeating diagonally with respect to some white cells, for eg. 9 is repeating in R2C3 & R3C4, 7 is repeating in R6C3 & R7C2 and R3C6 & R4C5 etc and not for shaded cells




The rule doesn't mean that digits in shaded cells will repeat. The digit in a shaded cell is irrelevant for that cell, it means (at least) two cells around that cell will have repeating digits. So in the 6x6 that is forced to be in a shaded cell but the way to look at it in there is, for R2C3, R2C4 and R3C3 are repeating among the 4 cells around it, so R2C3 is shaded. Since R2C3 and R3C4 are also repeating, R2C4 and R3C3 are shaded because for both of those cells, a digit is repeating in the 4 cells around them.
@ 2015-09-11 8:19 PM (#19308 - in reply to #19255) (#19308) Top

debmohanty




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debmohanty posted @ 2015-09-11 8:19 PM

Explaining with a diagram.

In the image at the right, the cell X has 4 orthogonal neighbours. They are marked as a,b,c,d. As you can see X shares an edge (side) with each of the four.

Now the rule of the Sudoku : If the cell X is white, a, b, c & d must be all different. If the cell X is shaded, then there must be some repetition among a,b,c,d (i.e. At least one of a = b or a =d or c = b or c =d must be true)
@ 2015-09-11 9:31 PM (#19309 - in reply to #19255) (#19309) Top

Himanshi



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Himanshi posted @ 2015-09-11 9:31 PM

Thanks a lot Prasanna and Deb Mohanty. Your explanations have helped a lot, specially with the diagram.
Just to confirm " a can never be = c" and " b can never be = d"
@ 2015-09-11 9:37 PM (#19310 - in reply to #19309) (#19310) Top

debmohanty




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debmohanty posted @ 2015-09-11 9:37 PM

Himanshi - 2015-09-11 9:31 PM
Just to confirm " a can never be = c" and " b can never be = d"
You are right. We will be violating Classic Sudoku rules if a =c or if b = d.
@ 2015-09-11 10:17 PM (#19311 - in reply to #19310) (#19311) Top

Himanshi



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Himanshi posted @ 2015-09-11 10:17 PM

Oops just didnt thought over it, was so confused on the entire things. Anyways thanks a lot :)
@ 2015-09-11 11:13 PM (#19312 - in reply to #19255) (#19312) Top

piyush99



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piyush99 posted @ 2015-09-11 11:13 PM

I am not able to get a start for the repeated neighbours sudoku (6*6). Can anyone plz help?
@ 2015-09-11 11:23 PM (#19313 - in reply to #19312) (#19313) Top

prasanna16391



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prasanna16391 posted @ 2015-09-11 11:23 PM

piyush99 - 2015-09-11 11:13 PM

I am not able to get a start for the repeated neighbours sudoku (6*6). Can anyone plz help?


See the image above and ask yourself this - if X is shaded, to accommodate any combination of repeating letters, wouldn't you need another shaded cell nearby, considering that white cells cannot have repeating neighbours?
@ 2015-09-11 11:34 PM (#19314 - in reply to #19255) (#19314) Top

piyush99



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piyush99 posted @ 2015-09-11 11:34 PM

Yeah done. Thanks
@ 2015-09-12 4:18 AM (#19315 - in reply to #19255) (#19315) Top

PuzzleScott



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PuzzleScott posted @ 2015-09-12 4:18 AM

In touchy sudoku, is it just clue digits that require a consecutive neighbor? Or is it every digit in the full solution?
@ 2015-09-12 5:49 AM (#19316 - in reply to #19315) (#19316) Top

debmohanty




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debmohanty posted @ 2015-09-12 5:49 AM

PuzzleScott - 2015-09-12 4:18 AM

In touchy sudoku, is it just clue digits that require a consecutive neighbor? Or is it every digit in the full solution?
Every digit in the full solution.
@ 2015-09-12 12:43 PM (#19317 - in reply to #19297) (#19317) Top

mihiryadav



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mihiryadav posted @ 2015-09-12 12:43 PM

I was posting a pic for reference...but the file size was big
@ 2015-09-12 1:48 PM (#19318 - in reply to #19255) (#19318) Top

An LMI player



An LMI player posted @ 2015-09-12 1:48 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? representation could have been better
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-12 2:05 PM (#19319 - in reply to #19255) (#19319) Top

kishy72



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kishy72 posted @ 2015-09-12 2:05 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Too many hard puzzles
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


That was an absolute feast of sudokus! Thanks Aditi and Prasanna for authoring a wonderful test.The sudokus were hard and testing.If I may add,this test should be a bit harsh on the beginners but it really must provide an excellent challenge to the veteran solvers.I anticipate the number of solvers who complete the test to be much lesser than the previous episode.Overall, this can be treated as an opportunity for the beginners to get some new ideas and understand more about tough sudokus in general.
Repeated Neighbours was the hardest of the lot followed by Touchy and they certainly justified their points worth.I find it difficult to choose my favourites as I enjoyed solving almost all.However,the standouts for me were Renban(7),Quadruple(11) and Thermo(9) in that order .Good to see young Aditi entering into the fray of Indian authors.This bodes well for the future.

---Kishore---
@ 2015-09-12 2:08 PM (#19320 - in reply to #19255) (#19320) Top

TiiT



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TiiT posted @ 2015-09-12 2:08 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Fairly Nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-12 2:12 PM (#19321 - in reply to #19255) (#19321) Top

An LMI player



An LMI player posted @ 2015-09-12 2:12 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-12 2:21 PM (#19322 - in reply to #19255) (#19322) Top

tamz29



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tamz29 posted @ 2015-09-12 2:21 PM

Lovely set of sudokus!
I really liked the new gimmick on Quadruple Sudoku.
Am I the only one who found the second Repeated Neighbours very tough?
I thought that puzzle was rather unfairly more difficult than the second-hardest one in the lot.
There's people with 17/18 but have very good times.
@ 2015-09-12 2:27 PM (#19323 - in reply to #19322) (#19323) Top

prasanna16391



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prasanna16391 posted @ 2015-09-12 2:27 PM

tamz29 - 2015-09-12 2:21 PM

Lovely set of sudokus!
I really liked the new gimmick on Quadruple Sudoku.
Am I the only one who found the second Repeated Neighbours very tough?
I thought that puzzle was rather unfairly more difficult than the second-hardest one in the lot.
There's people with 17/18 but have very good times.


It does seem to have been very tough going by the timings. I had both Deb and Rishi solve that one and had no issues (Rishi actually took longer on Touchy and still had a total testing time which was around 2 min more than his time for R1), but I guess it is a big strength for both of them. You need to get three pairs of repeating digits in each quadrant. I think it is possible to get those just by looking at the grid, but Jan Zverina says he missed the middle one and Tiit also says he missed the middle one for a while. So it might just be that. Was your experience of difficulty somewhere else?
@ 2015-09-12 7:01 PM (#19325 - in reply to #19323) (#19325) Top

tamz29



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tamz29 posted @ 2015-09-12 7:01 PM

I just took long to get the insight that there has to be three pairs in each 'region'.
Even knowing that, I ended up bifurcating to get my answer.
Nonetheless, it was a beautiful puzzle, requiring leaps of insight, one I would be happy with if I had wrote it :)
@ 2015-09-12 7:32 PM (#19326 - in reply to #19255) (#19326) Top

ingmanc



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ingmanc posted @ 2015-09-12 7:32 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? representation could have been better
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Fairly Nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-12 10:12 PM (#19327 - in reply to #19255) (#19327) Top

peluri



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peluri posted @ 2015-09-12 10:12 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Too many easy puzzles
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-13 12:45 AM (#19328 - in reply to #19255) (#19328) Top

An LMI player



An LMI player posted @ 2015-09-13 12:45 AM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Many puzzles were worth too much or too little


@ 2015-09-13 7:07 AM (#19329 - in reply to #19255) (#19329) Top

PuzzleScott



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PuzzleScott posted @ 2015-09-13 7:07 AM

Feedback tool hangs for me (flash).
Good variations for the theme.
I personally liked the easy/hard distributiion -- probably too many hard ones for beginners though.
Excellent puzzle quality! Some real delights.
Point values seems pretty fair.
@ 2015-09-13 10:43 AM (#19330 - in reply to #19255) (#19330) Top

devarajand



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devarajand posted @ 2015-09-13 10:43 AM

Prasanna's class stamped all over, including IB
@ 2015-09-13 10:49 AM (#19331 - in reply to #19255) (#19331) Top

devarajand



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devarajand posted @ 2015-09-13 10:49 AM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Too many hard puzzles
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-13 12:05 PM (#19332 - in reply to #19255) (#19332) Top

Richard



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Richard posted @ 2015-09-13 12:05 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? representation could have been better
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Too many hard puzzles
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


In my opinion, the neighbours theme sees on direct relationships between two orthogonal connected cells. Renban and Quadruple are a little bit off this theme. But: I enjoyed the test very much. Really nice aesthetics and solving routes. Maybe a bit on the hard side for beginners, exactly the right difficulty level for me! Thanks a lot!
@ 2015-09-13 12:17 PM (#19333 - in reply to #19255) (#19333) Top

tnv




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tnv posted @ 2015-09-13 12:17 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-13 12:17 PM (#19334 - in reply to #19330) (#19334) Top

prasanna16391



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prasanna16391 posted @ 2015-09-13 12:17 PM

devarajand - 2015-09-13 10:43 AM

Prasanna's class stamped all over, including IB


Thanks, but the IB is mostly by Deb :) The Repeated Neighbours 9x9 and the Thermo 9x9 at least are from previous contests I remember. Much easier to re-use than re-write for IBs.

@ 2015-09-13 4:52 PM (#19335 - in reply to #19255) (#19335) Top

Kwaka



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Kwaka posted @ 2015-09-13 4:52 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-13 5:22 PM (#19336 - in reply to #19255) (#19336) Top

An LMI player



An LMI player posted @ 2015-09-13 5:22 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-13 8:47 PM (#19337 - in reply to #19255) (#19337) Top

ghirsch



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ghirsch posted @ 2015-09-13 8:47 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-13 9:42 PM (#19338 - in reply to #19255) (#19338) Top

MrLiang




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MrLiang posted @ 2015-09-13 9:42 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-14 12:07 AM (#19339 - in reply to #19255) (#19339) Top

rakesh_rai




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rakesh_rai posted @ 2015-09-14 12:07 AM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? representation could have been better
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


Nice puzzles. My top three: Quadruple, Touchy and Repeated Neighbours.

As noted by Richard, technically, Renban and Quadruple do not necesarily belong to 'Neighbours' theme. Also, there is a variant by the name 'Neighbours' which could have been included to represent the theme better.

The rule change in Quadruple came in fairly late and it made the variant tougher too.
@ 2015-09-14 6:05 AM (#19342 - in reply to #19339) (#19342) Top

debmohanty




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debmohanty posted @ 2015-09-14 6:05 AM

rakesh_rai - 2015-09-14 12:07 AM
As noted by Richard, technically, Renban and Quadruple do not necesarily belong to 'Neighbours' theme.
Please elaborate.
@ 2015-09-14 8:00 AM (#19343 - in reply to #19342) (#19343) Top

rakesh_rai




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rakesh_rai posted @ 2015-09-14 8:00 AM

debmohanty - 2015-09-14 6:05 AM

rakesh_rai - 2015-09-14 12:07 AM
As noted by Richard, technically, Renban and Quadruple do not necesarily belong to 'Neighbours' theme.
Please elaborate.

The statement assumes Neighbours being interpreted as "direct relationships between two orthogonal connected cells"
@ 2015-09-14 8:17 AM (#19344 - in reply to #19255) (#19344) Top

lrani



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lrani posted @ 2015-09-14 8:17 AM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-14 8:22 AM (#19345 - in reply to #19255) (#19345) Top

lrani



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lrani posted @ 2015-09-14 8:22 AM

Can someone help explain me how to solve the Repeated neighbours 9X9 puzzle. I understood the rule and I was able to identify the orthogonally connected cells which will have same values but still couldnt solve it..
Found this one to be too tough....
@ 2015-09-14 8:42 AM (#19346 - in reply to #19343) (#19346) Top

debmohanty




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debmohanty posted @ 2015-09-14 8:42 AM

rakesh_rai - 2015-09-14 8:00 AM

debmohanty - 2015-09-14 6:05 AM

rakesh_rai - 2015-09-14 12:07 AM
As noted by Richard, technically, Renban and Quadruple do not necesarily belong to 'Neighbours' theme.
Please elaborate.

The statement assumes Neighbours being interpreted as "direct relationships between two orthogonal connected cells"
Even with that definition, Quadruple fits fine in this theme. If we restrict to "Orthogonal neighbours", even Thermo does not fit into this theme because the puzzles in the contest use relationships between diagonal neighbours.

In any case, in my opinion, Neighbours could either be orthogonal or diagonal.
@ 2015-09-14 8:54 AM (#19347 - in reply to #19255) (#19347) Top

An LMI player



An LMI player posted @ 2015-09-14 8:54 AM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Too many medium difficult puzzles
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-14 10:53 AM (#19348 - in reply to #19255) (#19348) Top

davep



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davep posted @ 2015-09-14 10:53 AM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Fairly Nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


Repeated neighbors give me a hard time for some reason. Enjoyed the test as always!
@ 2015-09-14 11:12 AM (#19349 - in reply to #19334) (#19349) Top

debmohanty




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debmohanty posted @ 2015-09-14 11:12 AM

prasanna16391 - 2015-09-13 12:17 PM

devarajand - 2015-09-13 10:43 AM

Prasanna's class stamped all over, including IB


Thanks, but the IB is mostly by Deb :) The Repeated Neighbours 9x9 and the Thermo 9x9 at least are from previous contests I remember. Much easier to re-use than re-write for IBs.



Most of the examples are from previous LMI contests.

Source of Sudokus in this IB :

I created following examples
6X6 Classics : originally for IB of SM first round last year
8X8 Classic : originally for IB of SM first round of SM last year
9X9 Classic 1,2,3 : originally for LMI Beginners' Sudoku Test - August 2012
Thermo 6X6 : originally for LMI Screen Test #3
Thermo 9X9 : originally for Sudoku Grand Prix Indian Round 2013
Touchy 6X6 : originally for LMI Screen Test #3
Touchy 9X9 : originally for IB of mock12
Repeated Neighbours 9X9 : I created for Sudoku Grand Prix Indian Round 2013
New Example of Quadruple 6X6 : originally for LMI Screen Test #3
Renban 9X9: originally for example of Beginners Sudoku Contest

Repeated Neighbours 6X6 : Prasanna created

Examples for Quadruple 6X6, 9X9 are taken from Times Sudoku Championship IB. I don't recollect who created them.
Renban 6X6 : I can't recollect where I took this from

The new example for Quadruple 6X6 was created by me for LMI Screen Test #3





Edited by debmohanty 2015-09-14 11:13 AM
@ 2015-09-14 12:00 PM (#19350 - in reply to #19255) (#19350) Top

prasanna16391



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prasanna16391 posted @ 2015-09-14 12:00 PM

Regarding the variant choices, last year's contest had Renban and Quad Max, and there weren't any specified notes that these didn't fit the theme, so I am a bit surprised to see it now that they are repeated (well, I'm equating Quad Max to Quadruple in terms of relation to neighbours). Either way, I think it is mainly an issue of definition here. I wouldn't limit Neighbours to a 1-1 connection, but anything to do with neighbourhood of cells. This can mean multiple cells defined by a common factor, or cells which are next to each other interacting. Just as a real-world example, if a person stays in an apartment on the same floor as 5 other apartments, all 5 would be called neighbours and together they can be called a neighbourhood. Of course, definitions can differ from individual to individual, this is just the way that we looked at it last year when we were coming up with the categories.
@ 2015-09-14 2:44 PM (#19356 - in reply to #19350) (#19356) Top

Richard



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Richard posted @ 2015-09-14 2:44 PM

prasanna16391 - 2015-09-14 12:00 PM

Regarding the variant choices, last year's contest had Renban and Quad Max, and there weren't any specified notes that these didn't fit the theme, so I am a bit surprised to see it now that they are repeated (well, I'm equating Quad Max to Quadruple in terms of relation to neighbours). Either way, I think it is mainly an issue of definition here. I wouldn't limit Neighbours to a 1-1 connection, but anything to do with neighbourhood of cells. This can mean multiple cells defined by a common factor, or cells which are next to each other interacting. Just as a real-world example, if a person stays in an apartment on the same floor as 5 other apartments, all 5 would be called neighbours and together they can be called a neighbourhood. Of course, definitions can differ from individual to individual, this is just the way that we looked at it last year when we were coming up with the categories.


In the Neighbours-round of 2014/2015 I had the same feeling, but less strong, so I didn’t write about it then. The reason I mentioned it this time, was to explain the orange colored result of my choice to say the variants didn’t represent the theme well.
In my opinion, the neighbours theme sees on relations between two neighbouring cells, where the number in one cell has a direct influence on (the possibilities in) the other cell. There are numerous variants that meet this criterium: (non)consecutive, kropki, odd/even-consecutive, answer eight, give me five, XV, next to nine, even sandwich, greater than are the first ones that cross my mind. Touchy and Repeated Neighbours fit well in that theme too.
It is all a matter of personal taste of course, and maybe I have a too narrow view on it. And the last thing I want is make a big issue of it. What counts most is that the variants were fantastic and that I enjoyed them very, very much. Knowing the writing skills of Prasanna, I wasn’t surprised about this, by the way. ?
@ 2015-09-14 2:50 PM (#19357 - in reply to #19255) (#19357) Top

An LMI player



An LMI player posted @ 2015-09-14 2:50 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-14 3:34 PM (#19359 - in reply to #19356) (#19359) Top

prasanna16391



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prasanna16391 posted @ 2015-09-14 3:34 PM

Richard - 2015-09-14 2:44 PM

(non)consecutive, kropki, odd/even-consecutive, answer eight, give me five, XV, next to nine, even sandwich, greater than are the first ones that cross my mind.


The problem is that we have a separate category of Converse and one Outside category, where most of the variants you named would fit well. Greater Than is the same as Thermo logically, with presentation differences, maybe Thermo has the added diagonal inequality. In general my Greater Thans would be same as a Thermo with just straight Thermos :)

It is definitely not a big issue, and I'd rather that some discussion comes of it and we get to know different perspectives when thinking of the categories next time. I'd say this one is just a matter of difference in definition of what Neighbours are though.

Another thing to consider is if a Renban doesn't come into this round it won't fit in any other since I wouldn't call it a standard variant (not for a beginner anyway) and it isn't Irregular, Odd Even, Converse, Math, Outside or Twisted Classic either. Our definition of Neighbourhood just allows there to be more difference between this one and a converse round and allows for more variety within the category. Maybe we just need to make it clearer when we present a future Neighbours round that it features 'Neighbourhood' and not 'Orthogonal Neighbours'.

I agree that the most important part is that the contest is enjoyable and I'm glad you enjoyed it :) I should say that 4 of the Sudokus were by Aditi. I will add more detail to that at the end of the contest.
@ 2015-09-14 4:43 PM (#19361 - in reply to #19255) (#19361) Top

margareta456



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margareta456 posted @ 2015-09-14 4:43 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-14 8:08 PM (#19364 - in reply to #19255) (#19364) Top

carburra




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Country : India

carburra posted @ 2015-09-14 8:08 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-14 8:25 PM (#19365 - in reply to #19255) (#19365) Top

rajeshk




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rajeshk posted @ 2015-09-14 8:25 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-14 11:29 PM (#19368 - in reply to #19255) (#19368) Top

An LMI player



An LMI player posted @ 2015-09-14 11:29 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Too many medium difficult puzzles
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Fairly Nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-14 11:58 PM (#19369 - in reply to #19255) (#19369) Top

neerajmehrotra



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neerajmehrotra posted @ 2015-09-14 11:58 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


Thanks a lot Prasanna and Aditi for nice set of sudokus - a real entertainment. I too agree with Kishy that the puzzles (especially the repeated neighbours and touchy) were little tough for the beginners. Infact I was totally clueless about both the versions of repeated neighbours and would request a step by step solution after the end of test.

Edited by neerajmehrotra 2015-09-15 12:04 AM
@ 2015-09-15 12:24 AM (#19370 - in reply to #19255) (#19370) Top

An LMI player



An LMI player posted @ 2015-09-15 12:24 AM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Fairly Nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-15 12:40 AM (#19371 - in reply to #19255) (#19371) Top

greenhorn



Posts: 164
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greenhorn posted @ 2015-09-15 12:40 AM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Fairly Nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-15 6:46 AM (#19372 - in reply to #19255) (#19372) Top

Administrator



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Administrator posted @ 2015-09-15 6:46 AM

With no more participants, this episode of Sudoku Mahabharat is over.

Here is the link to Cumulative Scores - http://logicmastersindia.com/SM/2015-16-ranks.asp
@ 2015-09-15 8:39 AM (#19373 - in reply to #19255) (#19373) Top

Administrator



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Administrator posted @ 2015-09-15 8:39 AM

Password removed and solutions appended.
@ 2015-09-15 11:21 AM (#19374 - in reply to #19255) (#19374) Top

rvarun



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Country : India

rvarun posted @ 2015-09-15 11:21 AM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


A great round by Prasanna and Aditi. I really enjoyed the round inspite of the wrong time I took the test. The round was harder when compared with the first round but this will be a solving experience on its own for everyone. My favourite among the attempted ones was the Touchy 15, which I broke once and missed out on submitting in the last minute. Waiting for the next round.
@ 2015-09-15 12:48 PM (#19377 - in reply to #19255) (#19377) Top

witty



Posts: 16

Country : India

witty posted @ 2015-09-15 12:48 PM

 How well did the variants represent the theme of the test ? variations represented the theme well
 What was your opinion of the distribution of easy/hard puzzles? Just right
 What did you think about the puzzle quality of the test? Very nice
 Of the puzzles you solved/attempted, how well did the point values reflect the difficulty? Most puzzles were worth the right amount


@ 2015-09-15 2:21 PM (#19379 - in reply to #19255) (#19379) Top

prasanna16391



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prasanna16391 posted @ 2015-09-15 2:21 PM

Before I start summarizing the contest I want to make a note. Some participants' results are showing a sudden and drastic spurt of improvement between Round 1 and Round 2. There is a possibility that must be considered, that some of this is via unfair means. Just remember that if you make it to the top 50 you will be invited to an offline final, and the final selection is made there for the team and for the Sudoku Mahabharat winners, so there is no point in using unfair means in the online rounds. You will also be costing someone deserving a spot in the offline finals.

If you have used unfair means in this or the earlier round, you can step up now and mention it, and have a clean slate for the remaining 6 rounds.

I will be posting some thoughts on the contest and a rough walkthrough for Repeated Neighbours by the end of the day. Thank you all for participating!
@ 2015-09-15 2:25 PM (#19380 - in reply to #19255) (#19380) Top

vu2hrh



Posts: 3

Country : India

vu2hrh posted @ 2015-09-15 2:25 PM

i vu2hrh rudresh had participated and submitted on 13 september but my score is not appearing in leadership board please clarify

rudresh h
@ 2015-09-15 2:31 PM (#19381 - in reply to #19380) (#19381) Top

Administrator



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Administrator posted @ 2015-09-15 2:31 PM

vu2hrh - 2015-09-15 2:25 PM

i vu2hrh rudresh had participated and submitted on 13 september but my score is not appearing in leadership board please clarify

rudresh h
I can see you at rank 278.

Edited by rakesh_rai 2015-09-15 4:34 PM
@ 2015-09-15 4:29 PM (#19382 - in reply to #19255) (#19382) Top

vu2hrh



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vu2hrh posted @ 2015-09-15 4:29 PM

please send link to see it
@ 2015-09-15 4:35 PM (#19383 - in reply to #19382) (#19383) Top

rakesh_rai




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rakesh_rai posted @ 2015-09-15 4:35 PM

vu2hrh - 2015-09-15 4:29 PM

please send link to see it
http://logicmastersindia.com/SM/201509/score.asp
@ 2015-09-15 8:31 PM (#19392 - in reply to #19255) (#19392) Top

prasanna16391



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prasanna16391 posted @ 2015-09-15 8:31 PM

The Neighbours round had 348 participants including 129 Indians. 117 Indians solved at least one Sudoku correctly.

Congrats to Rohan Rao, Jayant Ameta and Kishore Kumar who are the top 3 Indians in this round. Jayant has posted a very impressive score on a contest which was tougher than Round 1 going by the standings. Please improve on the consistency, Jayant :) Rakesh and Rajesh completed all 18 Sudokus before time too, bringing the total to 5 finishers. That's 8 less than the previous round, and a little below the ideal target, probably.

In the International standings, Timothy Doyle (France), Seungjae Kwak (South Korea) and Jakub Ondrousek (Czech Republic) who are the toppers, but Nikola was very close with just 34 seconds separating him from 3rd place. Kudos to Rohan who finished 5th, just ahead of some excellent solvers like Kota, Tiit, etc.

This round is the first of many where we tried to include an inexperienced author with an experienced one. A bit of background on Aditi Seshadri - she is the Bangalore winner in the 2015 edition of our youth competition, Sudoku Champs. She was part of the U-18 team which represented India at the World Junior Sudoku Championship and won a silver medal. Aditi herself stood 9th in that competition. For this round, she contributed the first 3 6x6 Standard Sudokus and the 3rd 9x9 Standard Sudoku. Side note - She is NOT my sibling :)

This round seems to have some mixed results. I think it became divided into solvers who are good at Repeated Neighbours and solvers who aren't, to an extent. Also, the Classics were easier than the ones in Round 1, which contributed to more beginners solving a bigger number of Sudokus. I think that's a good thing but ideally, you don't want one difficult Sudoku being the decider between top ranks.

Rishi Puri test solved the set and his total time is around 39 minutes, which is around the same as his time of 37 minutes for round 1. This just illustrates that, if you know how to go about the variant, they should get done quickly. I did have an idea that many may not know how to approach the variant, and that the results may look somewhat as they do, but I decided to go with it anyway because the technical difficulty was still according to format restrictions, and also because, in my opinion, Sudoku Mahabharat should have an aspect of learning new techniques through experience.

The late change to the Quadruple rules wasn't ideal, and was mostly my goof-up because I assumed the rules covered what I had already created, until I realized they didn't. Changing the Sudokus at this point would mean re-testing, changing the points distribution, and changing the Sudoku across PDF + Online interface, and in a rush that just means susceptibility to errors. So changing the rules was the better option. While it did make the Sudoku harder, I don't think the rule concept was that hard to digest, or that it necessitated a significantly different thought process.

There was also discussion about the theme being represented. While I don't think we will be changing the variants for this round in future SMs, I think we can work on making our definition of the term clearer, or using 'Neighbourhood variants' instead of 'Neighbours'. We'll look into that. Thanks to Richard and Rakesh for bringing it up.

All in all, I hope everyone enjoyed the Sudokus, and got a smile at the end ;) Thank you all once again for participating and we hope to see you soon in the Number Placement Round of Puzzle Ramayan by Deb, which is the closest that PR puzzles will get to Sudoku, and then in the Odd Even round of SM by Swaroop and Ashish.

In the meantime, I'll post the Repeated Neighbours walkthrough sometime later tonight.
@ 2015-09-16 5:21 AM (#19395 - in reply to #19255) (#19395) Top

prasanna16391



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prasanna16391 posted @ 2015-09-16 5:21 AM

Here is a very rough walkthrough for the crucial steps in both Repeated Neighbours. Post here if it is still unclear, try to pinpoint what is unclear.



Attachments
----------------
Attachments RepeatedNeighboursHowTo.pdf (137KB - 63 downloads)
@ 2015-09-16 11:05 PM (#19408 - in reply to #19395) (#19408) Top

gaurav.kjain



Posts: 52
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gaurav.kjain posted @ 2015-09-16 11:05 PM

prasanna16391 - 2015-09-16 5:21 AM

Here is a very rough walkthrough for the crucial steps in both Repeated Neighbours. Post here if it is still unclear, try to pinpoint what is unclear.


Real gem creation Prasanna, Thanks for such wonderful walk through.
I could even able to solve Monster from your blog (https://prasannaseshadri.wordpress.com/2013/07/23/puzzle-no-415-repeated-neighbours-sudoku-daily-league/) after this wonderful explanation, real quick.
@ 2015-09-18 2:03 PM (#19422 - in reply to #19255) (#19422) Top

radh



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Country : India

radh posted @ 2015-09-18 2:03 PM

Please allow us to submit the answers even after the event is over. Some of us, are not able to solve within the prescribed time and during the event. But if we are able to solve at a later stage, it would still give us some satisfaction